A Questionable Calldown VS an Extra-Tight TAG

gaming_mouse · #1 04-14-2005, 05:24 AM

Villain was 13/8 and 6,6,3 AF over many hands. So on the one hand, if he has an A I am surely dominated. OTOH, if he has QQ or KK, he would almost surely raise the flop regardless of the A. Anyone like a flop 3-bet/fold the turn UI if he caps? What about a stop n' go on the turn/fold to a raise?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.16 BB

einbert · #2 04-14-2005, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if he has QQ or KK, he would almost surely raise the flop regardless of the A

[/ QUOTE ]

So what is the point of the flop bet? If he'll bet TT-KK all the way, I would rather just check/call him down.

I guess with his aggression he might bet TT, JJ, KK on the river, so you can't fold there.

Shillx · #3 04-14-2005, 05:29 AM

Check call, check call, betchow dude. This is the exact prototype for when this play should be used!

Brad

einbert · #4 04-14-2005, 05:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check call, check call, betchow dude. This is the exact prototype for when this play should be used!

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian is really decent, he'll fold TT,JJ, and probably KK to the river bet. But he is aggressive enough that he might bet those hands if checked to. Why not just check/call the river since the guy is so aggressive?

gaming_mouse · #5 04-14-2005, 05:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check call, check call, betchow dude. This is the exact prototype for when this play should be used!

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

And fold to a raise, right?

I don't know.... I just knew this guy had me, which is why I'm questioning what might actually be a standard hand.

Shillx · #6 04-14-2005, 05:37 AM

You know that it takes days for the AF to converge...

He is almost surely going to payoff the river bet with KK-TT as long as it doesn't come down real bad. That is the beauty of the bet coming from nowhere...he has to call because it might be a bluff.

Brad

einbert · #7 04-14-2005, 05:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You know that it takes days for the AF to converge...

He is almost surely going to payoff the river bet with KK-TT as long as it doesn't come down real bad. That is the beauty of the bet coming from nowhere...he has to call because it might be a bluff.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, so I guess you're 100% comfortable folding to a raise then right? I would fold to it against this guy too. But I think there is some merit in letting him hang himself with hands he could possibly fold to our bet.

This is a really good thread to read. The situation is fairly different because there is also a K on the board, but basically the c/c c/c bet line was applied as c/c c/c c/c because almost every holding villian had was likely to be beating us. This hand is different because we beat several of villians possible hands (TT, JJ, and KK) but with a very high aggression factor like that I tend to doubt that he will check those behind on the river. Especially KK. And with an aggro factor like that he might very well be throwing in bluff raises at various times, so perhaps we can't be 100% sure about the fold to a raise.

Chairman Wood · #8 04-14-2005, 05:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You know that it takes days for the AF to converge...

He is almost surely going to payoff the river bet with KK-TT as long as it doesn't come down real bad. That is the beauty of the bet coming from nowhere...he has to call because it might be a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you fold when raised?

Carmine · #9 04-14-2005, 07:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know that it takes days for the AF to converge...

He is almost surely going to payoff the river bet with KK-TT as long as it doesn't come down real bad. That is the beauty of the bet coming from nowhere...he has to call because it might be a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you fold when raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

For me folding to a raise is read dependant and VERY board dependant. Lets face it if the Q had not come on this river there is only one 3-betting hand that beats us maybe two(AQ). I'm not giving credit for AA. If he has it so be it.
Even with the Q out considering his aggression I would call a raise. I really emphasis the board because I think that should determine our decision of wheather to fold to a river raise. The # of times I have called a raise in this spot and caught a player on a bluff-raise (or maybe it was a "I'm so confused now I don't know what to do raise") easily makes up for the times I called and lost one more bet.