Overplayed on Flop?

jason_t · #1 12-29-2004, 02:15 AM

This was my second hand at the table and I had no previous reads.

Was betting out on the flop wrong? Was the 3-bet on the flop too much? I have an overpair and an open-ended straight draw but there are reasonable holdings here to which I am behind and drawing thin. My thought was I should define my hand on the flop and if possible get everyone but the holder of A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to fold to increase my pot equity. In the spirit of Ed Miller's recent article in the magazine, I am not fearing the worst that someone flopped a flush. The turn and river are trivial so I am most curious about the preflop and flop play.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP3 folds, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, Button caps, Hero calls.

River: (20.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 28.50 BB
Main Pot: 28.50 BB between Hero and Button.

Luv2DriveTT · #2 12-29-2004, 02:25 AM

1st of all, don't cold call a pre-flop raise with 88 from the small blind unless its a very loose table.

Button's flop raise is saying "I am here, and I intend to fight". What do you expect the button to do if you 3-bet.. back down? Highly Unlikely with the average calling station, but possible with the average Loose passive player.

nice hand. I think you got a bit lucky here, eh?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BottlesOf · #3 12-29-2004, 02:34 AM

He's getting 5:1 on his pf call, maybe more. This is standard.

To the OP:

As for a flop, I'm a little unsure how to proceed here. The 3-bet seems too much as you can easily hit a heart and lose, if you're not behind already. AS for check/call, bet or, c/r, I'm honestly not sure. I don't think a c/r of an lp bet is right. Maybe check and see what happens?

Clearly, the turn card kicks ass.

jason_t · #4 12-29-2004, 03:08 AM

Technically, it's not a cold-call is it? And theoretically, I'm getting 5:1 on the call which I thought was correct with a small pocket pair (roughly 8:1 to hit a set so factor in implied odds).

How would you have played the flop then?

Certainly I got very lucky on the turn.

jason_t · #5 12-29-2004, 03:47 AM

So if I understand you correclty, a 3-bet on the flop is incorrect because even though I may be winning, my hand is incredibly vulnerable. So you think that it's too vulnerable to try and protect? Why would a check raise of a late-position bet be incorrect? Would I check and fold to a bet from the preflop raiser and raise by Button?

holdemfan · #6 12-29-2004, 11:40 AM

First I'm wondering what the button is like. He cold called 2 bets. This is an red flag unless he is a fish. Once he called it is not a big deal to play or fold the 88. Your more interested in flopping the set and play or miss and fold. For this you want a multipot. You figure the early limpers will probably complete.
On the flop I would not of gotten agressive with only 1 out to the nuts and the button who cold called going crazy. Call for sure, raise no way. In a multiway pot it is very likely someone already has the flush and the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] will not fold easily. In fact it would be possible that your agression pushed out any flush that could beat you but not likely. If you don't hit the 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and any of the 8 remaining [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s hit you probably lost. It's possible you chased out a couple bets by your aggression. MP3 could have had the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and went to the turn and called a big bet or two until the bidding war started. It still would of been the same size pot on the turn. On the turn it's time to turn the betting machine on automatic and take out what ever is in its way.
VNH