Folding 2nd Pair HU

gaming_mouse · #1 02-08-2005, 11:39 PM

CO seemed typical. Is this standard?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

ecooke · #2 02-08-2005, 11:45 PM

Straight up - I hate the Turn check and it's an auto bet for him when you do. I never fold in this spot.
It's a whole different ball game HU.

Harv72b · #3 02-08-2005, 11:55 PM

Either you pasted the wrong hand or your question is flawed. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

On this hand, I think bet/call on the flop, and check/call the turn (assuming UTG raised your flop bet). UTG could just as easily be betting a four-flush or OESD as he could top pair.

gaming_mouse · #4 02-09-2005, 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On this hand, I think bet/call on the flop, and check/call the turn (assuming UTG raised your flop bet). UTG could just as easily be betting a four-flush or OESD as he could top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I would have done. I actually played this hand with James, though, and this was his recommendation. So I was curious for more thoughts.

private joker · #5 02-09-2005, 12:04 AM

Yeah, I think leading this flop makes it play differently. I've been betting here. Is that wrong?

Harv72b · #6 02-09-2005, 12:07 AM

I meant to say check/fold on the turn...sorry, the local news was running a piece on cheerleaders so I was a little distracted. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

gaming_mouse · #7 02-09-2005, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think leading this flop makes it play differently. I've been betting here. Is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have too. I don't know if it's wrong, but James recommended a check, tho he said either was ok. I'd just like to hear the different arguments, as we didn't have time to discuss it in depth.

adamstewart · #8 02-09-2005, 12:17 AM

On the flop, with 3 others to act behind you, I agree with checking the flop to see how the action develops behind you.

Your flop call is VERY borderline, I'd say.

Here's how I see your 'outs', and I feel I'm being very generous: 2 full for the Jacks, "2" for three queens, "3" for the backdoor straight & flush draws. = ~ 7 effective outs.

This makes your 6:1 money call break-even. (BB is still left behind you, so he may bump it up to 7:1, or alternatively he could also check-raise. So, for the sake of argument, let's say these two possibilities negate each other).

Now, one could argue that you earn implied value, especially if you make one of your draws, or trips.

However, this pot is VERY small. And as you can see, even if a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] fell on the turn, you're barely getting enough odds to call for your flush draw. If you make a OESD on the turn, you don't even have the pots odds to call it (implied odds? maybe).

You're also out of position, which sucks all around - MAINLY because it hinders your implied odds (as your villains will get to see your plays before they act), AND it can turn into REVERSE IMPLIED ODDS if you make, say, two-pair, but someone also still beats you.... and probably makes you pay dearly by raising behind you.

This leads me to another, but related, reason for folding the flop. If anyone raises at any point behind you during this hand, you've just went into -EV.

In any case, you must fold the turn, as you did. This is a very small pot, you're out of position to continue, and you're very likely behind.

In summary, I think "check-calling" and "check-folding" the flop are nearly equal in terms of EV. Personally, though, I'd lean towards folding it.

Other than that, all other plays were standard.

Just my thoughts...

Adam

adamstewart · #9 02-09-2005, 12:22 AM

I see the merits in leading the flop and/or leading the turn. I was thinking about those lines as well.

However, this is a SMALL POT, and Hero is FIRST TO ACT, with 3 OTHERS BEHIND HIM.

For the times that Hero is ahead and wins the pot here - great, he wins (but only a small amount).

For the times Hero is behind, though - he could be setting himself up to get raised now, or worse, on the turn.

Perhaps this is weak/tight. But it's still too small of a pot to get crazy over, IMO.

Adam