Obvious slowplay I keep seeing at 5-10 6 max

[jdock99]

I have been playing 5-10 6 max for a couple weeks and several times a day I see the same "tricky" play over and over again, which I never really saw with such predictableness before, either online or live. It goes something like this.

I open raise in the cutoff or the button with a typically wide range of raising hands (My stats are 25/20 so this does include stuff like 87s and J10o). Anyways, one of the blinds 3 bets indicating he has a strong hand, and I either cap or call depending on my hand. Then the 3 better will bet an ace or king high flop, if I have something I will call often planning on raising the turn to see where I am at. Then the preflop bettor will check the turn. At this point alarm bells start going off in my head, especially if the top card on the board is an ace and it pairs. For some reasons the players in this game love to check their AK & AQ when there are two aces on the board, even if their preflop action makes it very likely that is exactly what they have. Anyways, in this situation which comes up frequently, I always check behind, and then the player speed bets the river. Sometimes I call, sometimes I dont, depending on my hand and general mood at the time, but if I do call I am almost always shown the strong hand which was indicated by the turn check.

The funny thing is most of these players would disguise their hand better if they just keep the initiative. Because this is what most preflop 3 bettors out of the blinds do most of the time, it is a lot harder to read their hand if they do this. I had one situation yesterday which was so blatantly obvious it was comical. I raised on the button w/ KK, the small blind who WAY overplays his hands and never gives up initiatie postflop 3 bets, I just call waiting for the turn to checkraise just about any board (except maybe one with an ace which I would just call down probably). Anyways, flop is JJT and the super-aggressive, never slow down player suddenly checks. WTF? Anyways, I check behind. Then the turn comes a blank, he checks again, I check again. He turbo bets the river, I call and he shows quad jacks. I do not even want to begin to think about how much action I would have given him if he played his hand normally.

[Michael Davis]

The problem is that you will often be checking and giving up these turns from the blind spot, so sometimes you need to check when you have an ace or king.

-Michael

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing 5-10 6 max for a couple weeks and several times a day I see the same "tricky" play over and over again, which I never really saw with such predictableness before, either online or live. It goes something like this.

I open raise in the cutoff or the button with a typically wide range of raising hands (My stats are 25/20 so this does include stuff like 87s and J10o). Anyways, one of the blinds 3 bets indicating he has a strong hand, and I either cap or call depending on my hand. Then the 3 better will bet an ace or king high flop, if I have something I will call often planning on raising the turn to see where I am at. Then the preflop bettor will check the turn. At this point alarm bells start going off in my head, especially if the top card on the board is an ace and it pairs. For some reasons the players in this game love to check their AK & AQ when there are two aces on the board, even if their preflop action makes it very likely that is exactly what they have. Anyways, in this situation which comes up frequently, I always check behind, and then the player speed bets the river. Sometimes I call, sometimes I dont, depending on my hand and general mood at the time, but if I do call I am almost always shown the strong hand which was indicated by the turn check.

The funny thing is most of these players would disguise their hand better if they just keep the initiative. Because this is what most preflop 3 bettors out of the blinds do most of the time, it is a lot harder to read their hand if they do this. I had one situation yesterday which was so blatantly obvious it was comical. I raised on the button w/ KK, the small blind who WAY overplays his hands and never gives up initiatie postflop 3 bets, I just call waiting for the turn to checkraise just about any board (except maybe one with an ace which I would just call down probably). Anyways, flop is JJT and the super-aggressive, never slow down player suddenly checks. WTF? Anyways, I check behind. Then the turn comes a blank, he checks again, I check again. He turbo bets the river, I call and he shows quad jacks. I do not even want to begin to think about how much action I would have given him if he played his hand normally.

[/ QUOTE ]

(emphasis added)

First, I agree completely with Michael Davis that this play often has merit, especially for other hands you'll be playing against this opponent and not necessarily in the specific hand at issue.

Second, I do not take your declarative statements as absolutes even though phrased this way (I presume you will not always do this or that). That being said, even if your stated standard lines happen with some great frequency (though less than always) a decent, observant opponent will adjust pretty rapidly and really start exploiting your play. You need to cap even your marginal holdings somtimes; and you need to call a blind 3-bet with your strong hands sometimes. You need to raise the flop when you have something sometimes instead of waiting until the turn usually. And you need to bet the turn sometimes even when you think a C/R is reasonably likely. A thinking, observant opponent will quickly get a decent hand range on you depending on your reaction to the three-bet; will start mixing in turn checks more effectively knowing you're reasonably likely to raise a turn after a flop call; and will start getting a cheap look at the river by autobetting the flop and checking the turn with a draw, as well as stealing pots by checking the turn and betting the river as a bluff. I'm not saying you adopt this approach too often (I don't know how you play obviously - just based on this post), but your post makes me think that your play might very well be easily readable and exploitable in HU pots by a decent Villain OOP.

[SA125]

I've said it a 100 times. The single most reliable online tell is when the pf raiser checks a flop that most likely hit them.

[jdock99]

In response to the posters who were advocating the slowplay or turn check as some sort of advanced metagame strategy, I wasn't talking about heads-up blind wars with thinking TA's. This is 5-10 holdem. I was referring to bad, predictable players checking on the flop or turn when the cards they are representing preflop come, as the above poster stated. Obviously, you see this in all games at all limits, I was just surprised at the prevalence of it in this particular game.

[naphand]

Indeed, on the majority of $5/$10 tables you do not really need to worry about getting "exploited", though there are undoubtedly players capable of this they, like you, will be mostly focussed on exploiting the fish/LAGs.

Worth bearing in mind though, because if you do see a player adjust like this you will have to make changes yourself. Some of the LAGs (the SLAGs) will be capable of this too. May be more of a $10/$20 and up problem... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[wheelz]

I was actually just thinking how I've noticed lately at 15/30 people who bet the flop then check the turn give up on their hands often, while at the 5/10 6-max I played on today there was a check-raise coming at me nearly every time.

Tiny ass sample size so just ignore me, but maybe he's on to something [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
In response to the posters who were advocating the slowplay or turn check as some sort of advanced metagame strategy, I wasn't talking about heads-up blind wars with thinking TA's. This is 5-10 holdem. I was referring to bad, predictable players checking on the flop or turn when the cards they are representing preflop come, as the above poster stated. Obviously, you see this in all games at all limits, I was just surprised at the prevalence of it in this particular game.

[/ QUOTE ]

A read as bad and predictable might change your approach once you've seen this behavior once or twice from them. I personally find that many of the bad 5/10 players are bad in very different ways. And from your initial post, it certainly sounded like a HU blind war situation. I would be very hesitant to give too much credit for an A (or K for example) in the situation you describe -- plenty of bad players (and good players too) will 3 bet a CO openraise with, for example, 55+, suited broadways, etc. They bet an A high flop and then give up or plan a silly move when they're called on the flop. In other words, I personally don't see this play often enough to be convinced that you're not missing a lot of value if you are routinely checking behind on the turn against relative unknowns in the situations you describe. Just another thought on what often goes on in these circumstances.