Standard SSH "Wait until the turn," or was I lazy?

MisterKing · #1 12-21-2004, 12:37 PM

I think I took the right line on the turn and river here, but am less sure about my flop action. I specifically recall advice from SSH about "waiting until the turn" to jack the pot up in some cases, particularly when many cards can ruin your holding. My top pair of 8's with no kicker seemed to be a prime candidate for this play, and the board looked to be of no help to my opponent's most likely holdings.

Do you bet this flop? And if so, what's your action on the turn?

FWIW, Villian is rated LP-P on BisonBison's auto-rate, with 300 hands logged.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Trix · #2 12-21-2004, 12:55 PM

Why do you want to risk a free card on this board ?

Whats with the openlimping in MP?

Bob T. · #3 12-21-2004, 12:55 PM

Preflop. I would open raise this hand in MP.
In fact, if it is folded to me in MP, I would never open limp.

Flop. Why not bet, the pot is small, but you don't want to give any free cards, and you don't mind winning the pot right now.

Turn. It's headsup with a passive postflop player, who is betting and isn't likely to fold at this point, and you have second pair, mediocre kicker. I would call the turn bet, and bet out on the river, and fold to a raise. I think the turn checkraise was a little bit ambitious for the limited values that you have.

River. You are going to call one bet, so out of position, betting is probably correct.

StellarWind · #4 12-21-2004, 01:01 PM

There are only 4 SB in the pot. That should eliminate any thought of waiting until the turn. This is a very easy flop bet.

TommyO · #5 12-21-2004, 01:07 PM

I don't understand why you would want to raise preflop with this hand. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't see how it's +EV. Isn't this the kind of hand that wants a multi-way pot? Only those people with better hands are going to call or re-raise. And what do you do the 80% of the time that the flop has a painted card and you have 9 high. Feel free to call me an idiot if it makes you feel better [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Thanks.

StellarWind · #6 12-21-2004, 01:09 PM

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Preflop. I would open raise this hand in MP.

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Assuming typical 2/4 opponents this is an easy fold first-in at Button+3. You have minimal steal equity. Why would you want to play 98s 3-handed for two bets?

MisterKing · #7 12-21-2004, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are only 4 SB in the pot. That should eliminate any thought of waiting until the turn. This is a very easy flop bet.

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That's what I was thinking when I posted this... not betting the flop bothered me. I guess its worth mentioning that the principle I was trying to use to rationalize my action ("wait til the turn") really only applies in more multiway hands where the pot is larger and nobody will fold no matter what the price. This is hardly such a situation.

I am intrigued by the criticism of my opening limp. I don't do this alot, and did it precisely zero percent of the time in 5-max, but I do make this play frequently with middle suited connectors and smaller suited aces. In the more passive 2/4 games (and this hand was at a table that was more passive than most), a raise in MP often gets you heads up, out of position, against a far superior hand. Not the kind of place I'd like to be with 98s. Open limping often gets several other MP and LP players to limp with you, building the pot for your draw and bringing "customers" in to pay you off when you do hit it. Of course that's the last thing I'd want when holding something like AKo, but with 98s its a different story.

And on the turn, agaisnt a LP-P, I do a lot of checkraising. They give up a high % of the time, even when they're ahead... I'm sticking with this play unless someone can work out a reason why it is -EV.

jedi · #8 12-21-2004, 01:19 PM

The flop action should be a bet. SSH talks about when to RAISE, not when to bet. If you check here, it could lead to a free card for everyone which would be disastrous. If someone bet in front of you, then you have to make the decision to raise or call.

That having been said, there's now an overcard up against you on the turn. Your pot equity has dramatically decreased if someone in fact has that ten. If the turn was a safe card, I would have raised, as your pot equity shoots up positively. In this case, I probably call down.

Reread the two-overpair hands section of SSH. I'm still rereading it over and over again.

StellarWind · #9 12-21-2004, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That having been said, there's now an overcard up against you on the turn. Your pot equity has dramatically decreased if someone in fact has that ten. If the turn was a safe card, I would have raised, as your pot equity shoots up positively. In this case, I probably call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
He is heads up with a player who bet the flop. I don't like the ten, but it isn't a big deal. Some sort of offensive action is long overdue. He should have bet the flop, he should have raised the flop, and now he should be betting the turn. Each passive action is another error.

I don't like the turn checkraise because your passive opponent may only bet with a better hand.

runa · #10 12-21-2004, 01:41 PM

I think there's a distinct difference between the position in your hand here and the SSH example that affects this play significantly. You aren't in late position so you have no idea how the action will unfold behind you, whereas if it is bet in front of you and called in several places you might then make a decision to wait until the turn instead of raising it on the flop where it will just bloat the pot. You also definitely do not want anyone getting a free ride here since your holding is so tenuous, so if you are in late position you can bet if checked to, whereas here you're stuck.

The turn CR is ok, but I think CR the turn can tie players on to pots rather than winning it immediately. It has a psychological effect on some players in that way. With passive players who only bet stronger than marginal holdings you will be called down by better hands or raised by something stronger. If you lose every time you are called, you have to win 50% of the time to break even on this play, which seems like a fairly high frequency.