Question about a strategy I've been trying

[ScottTheFish]

Ok I've been trying this the last few days and wanted to see what you guys thought. I've been raising from the BB after limpers with a lot of hands I would normally just check with. This may be standard procedure, i don't know.

Stuff like T9s, 98s, small pairs (22-77). Normally I would just check these and see a cheap flop. But with 5 or 6 limpers, I figure it only costs me one more SB to make everyone play for 2 bets, in case I hit my hand.

These are all hands that have the potential to flop big and get paid off by people who are tied to the pot, and are all easy to get away from if they don't hit.

I've had good success so far, hitting some sets and flushes that won way more that they would have normally. But over the long run wil this be profitable? So far the extra SBs I put in when I miss is more than made up for when I hit.

Whaddaya think? I only do this from the BB with 4+ limpers.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I think I would do it with 5+ limpers. It's a good strategy...the only thing I would add here is, if you're gonna do it with small pairs, do it with any pair. EV only goes up as your pairs get bigger.

[ScottTheFish]

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the only thing I would add here is, if you're gonna do it with small pairs, do it with any pair. EV only goes up as your pairs get bigger.

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Yeah I always raise big pairs, from wherever, against any number. I just mentioned the smaller pairs because normally I would just check them.

[TheRake]

StF,
Probly +EV but you should also Expect a higher variance.
Value betting is really what you are doing. With sm pairs You should have at least 6 limpers since you will flop a set around 1 in 7 to 8 times. Suited connectors have more ways to win, so with 5 limpers should be fine, Just be prepared for the big swings in your bankroll.

TheRake

[StellarWind]

I think there are excellent reasons why this play is not widely endorsed.

The odds of flopping a set are about 7.5-1. You need at least eight callers to be +EV if your set always wins, but of course it doesn't so you need more callers.

You may also fool your opponents into doing the right thing for the wrong reason. One of the primary virtues of sets is their surprise value, especially from the BB. They get a lot of action from people who are drawing dead. By representing a big overpair, you warn everyone what a danger you are. Your checkraise chances are shot and when you bet out you get less callers and less 3-bet chances.

[Nate tha' Great]

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I think there are excellent reasons why this play is not widely endorsed.

The odds of flopping a set are about 7.5-1. You need at least eight callers to be +EV if your set always wins, but of course it doesn't so you need more callers.

You may also fool your opponents into doing the right thing for the wrong reason. One of the primary virtues of sets is their surprise value, especially from the BB. They get a lot of action from people who are drawing dead. By representing a big overpair, you warn everyone what a danger you are. Your checkraise chances are shot and when you bet out you get less callers and less 3-bet chances.

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I agree. Playing out of the blinds sucks, but one thing that's nice about them in multiway pots is that you often have the opportunity to manipulate odds/opponents considerations after the flop, since they're easy positions to check-raise from, and since your hands are intrinsically well-disguised. I'd rather see the flop cheaply and explore my options when I see the first three common cards unless I have a *very* strong multiway hand (QQ-->AA or premium suited cards.)

[ScottTheFish]

SW,
You make some valid points. I think on plays like this you have to look beyond the pot odds, tho. I don't think anyone would tell me to fold 44 in LP with 4 limpers in front because I don't have the 8:1 odds I need to flop my set. Obvioulsy small pairs live on implied odds.

Also about the blown check-raise chances, etc: Against good or even average players I'd agree. But if I raise from the BB on Party 2/4 vs. 5 ppl, flop a set, and check, the chances of nobody betting are approximately 0%. Against these players, a raise won't kill my action. Half of them won't remember who raised, and the other half won't care as long as they have a pair.

Anyway I'm not arguing with you, just thinking out loud.

[TheRake]

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You need at least eight callers..

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Don't forget your BB is already in the pot. 7 limpers gives you 8:1 on your call.

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By representing a big overpair, you warn everyone what a danger you are. Your checkraise chances are shot and when you bet out you get less callers and less 3-bet chances

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If you are in a game where 7 people are limping BTF regularly I doubt there is much chance that many of them are "On To You" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Half of them probly don't even remember you raised.

I don't like this play either, but technically it can be +EV.

TheRake

[Trix]

I dont do it from the BB either.
Sometimes from LP though.

[deacsoft]

Your play does have some positive qualities, but I think it is a loser in the run. You're not in any position to pull off moves like that. You are, however, in a great check raise position after the flop if you hit something. Also, chances are very few, if any, are going to pass after your late preflop raise. Everyone still in from that point on is going to be looking at some decent pot odds ,and out of all those callers someone is bound to hit something on the turn or river. The only time this is going to make you money is when you flop the nuts or damn close. I'd see the flop for cheap and look for a check raise on the turn if I hit something.

I like that you're not afraid to try out some different concepts. I just wouldn't get to attached to this one. Good luck.