A showdown ruling question - "You win"

JTG51 · #1 12-05-2002, 12:02 AM

Here's a quick description of the hand so the question makes some sense.

An EP player open raises. He gets one caller, in LP.

Flop: A 8 3

EP bets, LP calls.

Turn: [A 8 3] 2

EP bets, LP calls.

River: [A 8 3 2] 7

EP bets, LP calls.

EP now says, "You win." but doesn't muck his hand yet. LP waits for the pot without showing his hand.

Someone points out that a hand has to be shown, or someone has to muck. EP flips over KQ. LP shows a pair of 8's (I don't remember the kicker).

LP gets the pot and we move on. A lively discussion started about whether EP was eligable to win after he said, "You win." I thought that since EP didn't actually muck, if when he turned over his cards he had the best hand he would win. Afterall, cards speak. No one's cards touched the muck, or even moved towards it.

Some of the other players claimed once EP said, "You win" he forfeited the pot, regardless of what the cards were.

Who's right?

Dynasty · #2 12-05-2002, 12:27 AM

EP's cards are live and he can still win the pot. I have no doubt about this one.

Hotchile · #3 12-05-2002, 01:29 PM

100% agree with Dynasty. However, EP should be given a gentle reminder to simply turn his hand over since he was the last player to initiate action. Often a player will use this, "you win" tactic to get their opponent to show so that they can muck without having to reveal their bluff. This is one of the 'VERY FEW' times that I agree with "I want to see that hand"

Hotchile

HDPM · #4 12-05-2002, 02:35 PM

What was the dealer doing while "someone" was pointing out what had to happen? Dynasty is right, but the dealer needs to pull his/her head out. Other players should not be giving instructions to the players at showdown.

JTG51 · #5 12-05-2002, 03:02 PM

Good question HDPM. I think the dealer was still busy trying to figure out how many cards he's supposed to turn over for a flop.

He actually was on the side of the guys who said EP's hand was dead.

I didn't bother joining the argument, and neither did EP. He was a floor person in this poker room for 5 years, and is one of the most level headed guys I know. He stated once that his hand wasn't dead, then didn't get involved. I figured if he didn't care to argue the point, neither did I.

Thanks for the responses.

Hotchile · #6 12-05-2002, 03:27 PM

As a floorman I think he would know better than to give the ol' "you win". Why not just muck the hand? Also, this might be why the dealer didn't speak up. Often a dealer will go out of their way to avoid a confrontation, especially if the person is/was somewhat of an authority figure. Afterall, they are working for tips.

Larry

DeezNuts · #7 12-05-2002, 03:32 PM

Some people take advantage of the courtesy showings. They say "You win" but hold onto their cards, knowing they have a chance to win. For these people, I never allow them to say "Ace-high" or anything else to get me to show my cards. They either have to muck or show. That's it.

Oh yeah, and EP's cards are live for sure.

DN

JTG51 · #8 12-05-2002, 03:59 PM

You are right, in a perfect world EP would have just shown his hand.

The dealer didn't speak up because he was incompetent. He is the type that just sits back and waits for someone to tell him what to do most of the time.

JTG51 · #9 12-05-2002, 04:02 PM

I am the same way. When someone says something like, "I can't win." I generally say, "OK" and wait for them to either muck or show it down.

Hotchile · #10 12-05-2002, 05:00 PM

It seems to me that dealers are so often poorly trained. They get taught the mechanics of the game but without 3 or 4 years of experience, they don't understand the intricacies of the game. When I was training dealers I spent 1/2 an hour every session teaching them how to deal with situations such as this diplomatically but firmly. I don't know why this isn't taught as a matter of course. Whenever they get told to "control the table", they immediately think they have to get stern or bitchy because they have not been properly taught how to actually do it.

To all dealer trainers of the world, please, teach beyond just pitching cards. Ignoring the subtleties of the game is unfair to both the players and the dealers who end up putting up with a lot of crap because they don't know how to deal with certain situations.

Larry