08 Raising to Isolate... good or bad idea here

[Moneyline]

Pokerstars 3/6 9 handed, great game

Folded to CO (awful player, plays 75% of hands)who limps, I raise from button with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], sb (loose, plays very poor postflop) 3-bets, tight BB folds, CO calls, I call.

Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets, CO calls, I fold.

Comments appreciated... Also, would the best play be different if both blinds were tight.

[jayheaps]

i like the move in general, but your hand here is just too weak. What are you hoping flops?

[cjs]

I'd muck rather than raise. Choose a stronger hand to isolate with.

[johnnybeef]

these types of players are going to pay you off when you have a hand and it is obvious. find a better hand to play them with, it will be much more profitable. against terrible players ABC poker is the best strategy.

[pokerswami]

Your hand, pre-flop, is not much to write home about. It is worth, at most, a call btf, hoping no one raises.

In a loose, juicy game this is a drawing hand. In a tight game, it is a fold.

Your most obvious route to a win btf is a spade flush. To win at showdown with a spade flush you will need 3 spades on the board, and you obviously would prefer no pair on the board. So - THIS IS A DRAW!

Basic poker dictates that if all you have is a longshot draw you need multiple opponents to give you proper money odds. You don't want to force players out btf. You want to get in as cheaply as possible against as many opponents as possible and catch a miracle flop - one that helps you and hurts them. And you want to be against loose enough players that they will stay and pay you off, unless they have full house draws, then you want to raise them out after they donate another bet or two.

Your prospects for decent pot odds were damaged when everyone folded to the CO. At that point you had a maximum of 3 opponents, and barring a miracle, you were in play for only half the pot.

[Moneyline]

Thank you for your comments everyone, but after thinking about Yads's "A3 hand vs A2 hand" thread I think hands like As Qd 6s 5d are a lot stronger than most are giving it credit for.

I did some twodimes sims to see how my hand does against various hands heads-up:

Against totally random hands (which were not out of the question for the CO limper) I am a huge favorite

59% vs Th 8h 8s 2d
63% vs Js 9d 7c 2c
60% vs Qs 9h 4h 2s

Against an iffy hand that will look good to a poor player I am also a favorite (usually a big one)

62% vs Ac Jc Th 9d
60% vs Kd Kc Qh 9c
55% vs Ah Jd 6s 4h

I'm even a small favorite against some fairly strong hands (although I have absolutely no reason to believe my opponent holds a hand this powerful)

52% vs Ac 9s 3h 2h
51% vs Ac Th 9c 2h

I only start to get into trouble vs. a very narrow range of hands, and even against them I'm usually (but not always) only a very small dog.

49% vs Ac Kh 9d 2h
38% vs Ac Ah 7d 3h
47% vs Ah Jc 3h 2c
49.5% vs Ah Qs 5h 2c

So (heads-up at least) I think a hand like this is actually really good. Even more so since I'll have position throughout the hand. Still, since every single poster who responded thinks this hand should be mucked, I'm reticent about thinking a good 2-way hand like this is a monster.

As I see it, the problem with this sort of hand is that there is only one realistic draw to the nuts (the spade flush draw) and that won't come in very often. So even if my hand technically has an advantage in multi-way pots (and I haven't run any sims to see if this is the case or not) it becomes very hard to play the hand because I usually won't have any nut draws. So, IMO, the dilemma is not whether or not the hand is good heads-up (it is). Rather, the dilemma is whether or not a raise is likely to get the pot head-up, as the hand is devalued heavily if the pot becomes multi-way.

I suppose the point of this long post was mainly to reinforce my belief that this hand actually has a lot of merit 1 on 1. I'm still wondering, however, if the benefits of playing good 2 way hands heads-up (like the one in the particular hand I posted) are outweighed by the prospect of the blinds staying in the pot and forcing me into a tricky, and likely unprofitbale situation.

[pokerswami]

I would like to see Buzz or Ray Zee comment on this thread.
Maybe Buzz will happen along.

[chaos]

The problem with the sims is that they are played to the river. In real life you may not stick around that long. Say two low cards flop. Are you going to play your A5 low draw to the river with only Ace-Queen high for your high?

Also raising to isolate is less likely to work in a loose low limit game. I would expect at least one of the blinds to call a majority of the time. If you had a read that both of the blinds were tight then you might try this play.

I would fold and wait for a more profitable opportuninty.

[obi---one]

I'm not mucking that flop. But I don't like ur preflop raise in loose game conditions. mAybe if the game was tight I would raise there, but in a loose game letem comein and hit the flop. As is, that wasnt a horrible flop for your hand. I would at least see the turn with straight and low draws. A two would look pretty nice and a 4 is not horrible. But I would muck without improvement on the expensive street

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the sims is that they are played to the river. In real life you may not stick around that long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, that seems more than reasonable. However, heads-up in position I'm probably going to stick around to the river anyway unless the board comes really bad for me and my opponent bets (or raises).

[ QUOTE ]
Say two low cards flop. Are you going to play your A5 low draw to the river with only Ace-Queen high for your high?


[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. I may be making a mistake doing that heads-up, but it seems like the right play to me. If those 2 low cards are 23, 24, or 34 I'm definitely sticking around. If my low draw also gives me a pair or a straight draw I'm probably not giving up either. Even on bad low flops for me that don't bring any high possibilities like 833 I can always take a free look at the turn if I want. The flop I ended up getting (873 clubs) isn't even that bad heads up IMO as long as I am careful if my opponent starts betting.

[ QUOTE ]
Also raising to isolate is less likely to work in a loose low limit game. I would expect at least one of the blinds to call a majority of the time. If you had a read that both of the blinds were tight then you might try this play.


[/ QUOTE ]

That seems reasonable. In this case the BB was tight (which I thought was more important than the SB being tight) but the SB was still farily likely to tag along.

I'm still convinced that A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a good hand... perhaps I'm just being stubborn. Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.