Axs, flops 4-flush, what to do on the turn/river?

bozlax · #1 04-01-2005, 01:22 PM

I get so lost when I'm on a pure flush-draw like this.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Standard to call here for 1 SB, right?

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Ok, now I C/R to pump the 4-flush.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Since I just C/R'd the flop, I have to bet out the turn, right? Would checking here be seen as weakness and a clear flush draw, or an attempt to C/R again?

River: (12.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero ?

[groan]Ace-high.[/groan] What now?

FishHooks · #2 04-01-2005, 01:25 PM

I dont see how you can bet this river, check/fold

GoHoosiers · #3 04-01-2005, 01:31 PM

Not sure I would C/R the flop for a couple reasons:

1. You risk knocking out UTG+1 by facing him with 2 cold.
2. You risk a 3-bet by MP2.
3. You have become the aggressor on a drawing hand, and are now expected to bet out on the turn, [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or not.

I would have bet out the flop, and (hopefully) UTG+1 calls, let MP2 raise, and then call the second bet. There are still 6 SB put in on the flop (8 SB if CO cold-calls!), and it still allows you to check-call the turn if a non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits.

Check-fold the river.

Rich

bozlax · #4 04-01-2005, 01:37 PM

Great line. Wish I was smart enough to come up with it on my own, on the fly [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

GrunchCan · #5 04-01-2005, 01:46 PM

PF is fine.

Bet out on the flop. CRing accomplishes the opposite of what you want to accomplish here. With 3 opponents you have an equity edge, so you want to get as many bets out of as many people as possible. CRing a LP bettor will face at least 1 opponent with 2 cold, which may encourage them to fold. You don't want anyone to fold on the flop. Betting out is better. (No pun)

Check-call the turn. Your equity edge is gone. The presence of a 3-straight on board makes this especially true, but it would still be true if a brick came on the turn b/c there's only 1 more card coming. Don't lead - but call virtually any bet.

Check-fold the river. You lost this hand. Move on to the next.

Even if you play perfect poker, that doesn't mean you'll win every pot, or even most pots. But playing this hand correctly makes a lot of Sklansky bucks, and over the long haul those will turn in to Real bucks.

bozlax · #6 04-01-2005, 02:08 PM

So, something more like this?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG raises, 3 folds, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Belok · #7 04-01-2005, 02:15 PM

your 2nd hand was played much better than the first.

I see absolutely no point in C/Ring a flush draw unless you know 4+ people are still going to be in the hand after you do it. But even still, after you do that, i fyou hit your flush you wont be able to checkraise. Bet/calling, check/calling, and check/folding on the first hand would have been best.

GrunchCan · #8 04-01-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, something more like this?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG raises, 3 folds, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

If the turn were a brick, I'd say nice hand.

As it fell, you spiked TP+FD on the turn. This increases your equity in the hand. You need 51% to raise. You have 20% from just the FD. Do you get 31% from the TP? I'd say so. You could be behind KT, but the villan could also just have AT or even JJ or a variety of other hands.

Betting out on the turn could define your hand better than going for a CR on the turn, however. If you bet and the villan has KT, he'll surely raise. If you bet and he just calls, your'e likely ahead. You can't fold to a raise here, but you'll have a better idea where you stand.

Bet the turn.

davelin · #9 04-01-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet out on the flop. CRing accomplishes the opposite of what you want to accomplish here. With 3 opponents you have an equity edge, so you want to get as many bets out of as many people as possible. CRing a LP bettor will face at least 1 opponent with 2 cold, which may encourage them to fold. You don't want anyone to fold on the flop. Betting out is better. (No pun)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind the c/r here, we have a pre-flop aggressor so we know most likely who is going to bet the flop. But I guess all things being equal, we should probably bet because of the small chance of it getting checked or a different LP player does the betting instead.

DEFINITE check/call the turn. Betting here sucks.

GrunchCan · #10 04-01-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind the c/r here, we have a pre-flop aggressor so we know most likely who is going to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing I don't like about the CR is the fact that it will face UTG with 2 cold. If even 1 opponent folds this hand, we will have lost our equity edge. That's why I bet instead of CR.