Loose passive games - call or raise?

[Mano]

I often find myself in loose passive games in middle to late position with good, but not great starting hands and often question weather it is better to just limp along after several others have already limped and see what to do on the flop, or raise what may likely be the best hand. I was hoping some of you could comment on some of how you would play the following hands in middle or late position, assuming at least 2 or 3 limpers already in and loose passive blinds:

1) AJ s/o
2) AQ s/o
3) KQ s/o
4) medium pp (8-J)
5) small pp (2-7)
5) KJ s/o

If any of you would care to comment on any of these starting hands I would be interested in how you would play them. Thanks.

[Pot-A]

I usually categorize these games more than "loose passive". The question is - how apt are your opponents to lay down a bad hand on the flop?

If I'm in a game where people take any two cards to the flop but then are willing to lay down hands that don't flop well, I tend to play more aggressively pre-flop. I'll raise all the suited hands you list, as well as the pocket pairs if I think I'll have at least 5 callers. The off-suit hands are more problematic. If I don't think I can drive anybody out I'll save that extra bet until I see the flop.

The second type of game is characterized by opponents who call to the flop and then keep calling with gut-shots and medium pairs. This is the most profitable game you can find.

Recall that they're making less of a mistake mathmatically if they make a loose call when the pot is large. Since I want my opponents to make big mistakes, I don't want a giant pot when I have top pair with best kicker. In this type of game I wouldn't raise with any of the hands you've listed. Even the big suited hands that play well in large pots don't hit the flop very often. Save your agression for post-flop when you hit, since you need a reasonably strong hand to survive to the river. The value you receive from this type of game is the money you make after the flop when your opponents are drawing slim or dead and don't realize it.

Of course, you always raise with a really strong hand like AA, since it wins often enough to be profitable even if everyone calls.

[Noo Yawk]

1) Raise
2) Raise
3) call offsuit, raise suited
4) Raise
5) Fold offsuit, call or raise suited

[Ed Miller]

Generally, I would raise with all the suited hands you listed and limp with the offsuit hands (except AQo with two limpers in front, which I would raise). Raise with big pairs and limp with small pairs.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
That's interesting... you'd raise the suited and limp with offsuit?

I've seen other posters reccomend exactly the opposite in other posts. Limp with suited because you are trying for the flush... raise with the unsuited because you are playing them as overpairs.

Have I got a misconception going?

Sincerely,
AA

[Dr.Kimble]

In Loose passive games I prefer to see the Flop so cheap we possible [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Ed Miller]

I've seen other posters reccomend exactly the opposite in other posts. Limp with suited because you are trying for the flush... raise with the unsuited because you are playing them as overpairs. Have I got a misconception going?

I think you are confusing two different situations. If you are first in from EP, you should be inclined to raise big offsuit cards a) for value, and b) to discourage other players from entering the pot to keep it shorthanded. If instead your big cards are suited, then raising is fine... but this time you have a much bigger hand, and you wouldn't mind seeing many players in for several bets. Thus, it is sometimes a good idea to limp (generally with the intention of reraising) with these hands.

The situation in question, however, is much different. You are in LP and there are already several limpers to you. In this case, you already have a multiway pot, and there is no chance that raising will change that. Thus, you should raise your big suited cards basically 100% of the time... you will be getting a large amount of equity for your raise... and failing to raise here is a big mistake. With the offsuit cards... you should be more inclined to limp with them for several reasons. First, your hand isn't nearly as strong now... so you won't get nearly as much equity from the raise as you would have before. Second, if you build a big pot preflop, it becomes difficult to protect a top pair with a single bet. Remember that your money in poker comes from the mistakes that your opponents make. When your loose opponents limp in, they have made a mistake. You double that mistake by raising. But many times this preflop mistake is a relatively small one, so even when doubled they aren't losing that much money. If you can manipulate the same opponent to make a much larger mistake postflop (i.e. calling with a 3-outter in an unraised pot) then you will make more money from him in the longrun.

[bernie]

i agree with most of your reply except this...

"you will be getting a large amount of equity for your raise... and failing to raise here is a big mistake"

many times youre raising to tie players to the pot if you hit your hand. or to build the pot to pad the pot odds to call should you hit a draw...

that said, there is a concept that if you dont need to raise here to tie them to the pot, meaning theyd chase anyway, you dont need to raise here for this purpose...youll collect anyway and theyll make mistakes on the flop play should a situation develop where you can cut odds there...

however, i like raising here anyway. primarily because it widens my range of hands i could be raising with preflop. sometimes, ill even raise the offsuit hands here, though your right, your not getting the pot shorthanded. and if you hit your hand a little, youre going to have to wait for the turn to try and get the chasers to actually be close to making a mistake in chasing....

if youre going to give a little during a hand, preflop is where to do it. because you can make up for it later in the hand. which is why i think, for the most part, mistakes later in the hand, once your in the hand, can be more costly. you have lesser time to make up for what you gave in a given bet round...not sure i said all that right...hope ya get the gist of it..

cya...

b

[SoBeDude]

You bring up an excellent distinction in game descriptions.

My regular game has loose preflop conditions where 4-6 people regularly see the flop.

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

They ignore pot odds with a four-flush or open-ended straight draw and will call you down to the river.

Also, they tend to be callers unless they have a made hand. And they also love to sandbag when they do have it. It is very tough to put most of them on a hand.

Suggestions how to play this table?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[sucka]

Sounds like you do have alot of 'chasers' in your game. When/where do you guys play? Have an extra seat? [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

This has been an interesting thread - it solidfied some thoughts for me and made me double think a few others...

Here's my general idea of how you might want to play in this game - which btw, is similar to many LL B&M games that I play in.

If an early pre-flop raise will limit the field then do so with your big pairs, unsuited big cards (AK, AQ, KQ, etc..). You want to push out some players behind you and get a shorthanded pot going where your top pair good kicker will hold up for you - that's what you are shooting for here. AKo is a great hand - shorthanded or in a family pot - but you are going to win with it more when you have less players. Raise it up and try to get it that way.

If the pots are generally unraised pre-flop you can limp alot more with hands like Axs, Kxs and often times Qxs from nearly any position. Occasionally you'll get an early or middle position raiser that will clear the table and you'll be 2 or 3 handed with a holding that prefers as many in as possible - but that's how it goes. When you can sneak in to these multi-way pots with hands that can make monsters in the loose passive games you have to do so.

In late position, follow the advice given in a few of the above posts. When you hold big suited connectors those hands can play well in large or small pots - so you often want to raise those up regardless of how many people are playing. I often times will raise hands like QJs and JTs when there is a family or near-family pot going when im late. I have position and have a hand that loves a ton of action. I look at it as though I'm putting in one extra small bet to get 5,6,7 or however many back should I spike a hand. It's a small investment for a possible large return. If you miss completely here and the flop is getting a ton of action - ie; 2 or 3 bets to you, then you cut your losses and wait for the next opportunity.

Also, if you game is really loose-passive preflop you can start limping with 1 or 2 gapper suited connectors (T9s, QTs, J9s, etc...) as these hands can make potential monsters as well.

Of course you have to continue to effectively check-raise and semi-bluff here - especially in situations on the flop and turn where you can use these (with position) to get more bets into the pot or clear the field by making other players call 2 or 3 bets cold.

I rarely see LL players effectively check raise. Almost every time someone checkraises at a LL table someone says something like, "Ah, trying to get a free card huh?" The strategic check-raise and semi-bluff raise are your friends - use them. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Just for the record - I have nary to find a LL player who will EVER laydown 4 flush or 4 to an open ender - even if it's not to the nuts and there is a ton of action. They just can't stand to do it. You'll get hammered a few times - but punish these players when they are drawing out on you with trash. If you have a made hand on the flop - like top pair or 2 pair - these flush and straight draw folks are looking at 4-1 and 5-1 dogs to complete their hand against you. Make them pay.

I'm sure that others will elaborate but basically, your game is a good one to be in. Do you have "Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players"? or any other Sklansky/Malmuth poker books? If not, I strongly suggest that you at least get the above mentioned one and read, re-read and then read it again.