08 - folding nut high

6-12 08, pretty typical loose passive game.


I was the BB and got a free play with J-10-5-4, suits not important. Seven players in for one small bet each.


Flop: 7 6 3 rainbow.


SB bets and... I fold. Too wimpy, or pretty routine?


I'll post my thoughts and how the hand played out, which probably isn't of great consequence, below.

So I flopped the nut straight, but my feeling was that it was unlikely to hold up, and that I was playing for half the pot. My low was bad and surely there were made better lows out there.


How the hand played out:


Turn: 7, pairing the board. SB bet and 3 or 4 players called.


River: 10, final board 3-6-7-7-10. SB had the low, and the high made trip 7s on the turn and filled on the river. Another player had just trip 7s.


So, my straight would have been good for high until the river, but I doubt that I would have been able to knock out the guy who ended up making a boat. He, along with the rest of the table, was quite loose.

Caddy,


I haven't looked at your posted thoughts or results yet. There are times to fold an extremely vulnerable nut high when low is already made but is this one of them? To lose you need to see runner runner in one suit or have the board pair. Someone can also make a higher straight but these middle cards aren't always out. And if the field narrows down post flop having the board pair or running flush come does not neccesarily lose for you.


I would call the SBs bet and find out where the hands are. If it comes back to you as a raise, reraise, cap you are probably overly vulnerable to wraps and sets for half the pot and you can fold. But I would call a single flop raise and see the turn. Aces, deuces, and paints are all very good for you.


BTW, it might be a fold if the flop came with a two flush. Anyway, let's hope zee, Louie, Pac Bell Buzz, Ohnonotagain! and others comment since I'm not extremely sure here.


Regards,


Rick

yes, it may get beat, and yes you have a poor low, BUT with some chance of a win both ways you surely need to go as far as you can go on the cheap...leave only if raised early, if raise comes from late position then you may want to call.

Good points Rick, especially about the rainbow board. If the flop had come 2 suited, I'd be less unsure about my fold.

I've been toasted way to often with in cheap,flops like that and I'm very leery of calling even one bet.With five players to go I'm out of there.Thats a great flop for what alot of loose passive types play.Save your money for better battles...

It's not a great situation but that doesn't mean you can't make a profit. I would call and see what happens. The bigger straights that might come maybe aren't so threatening because e.g. a lot of people rightly won't play a lot of hands with 89 in them, and if someone did have 89 they'd only have 6 outs because you have a 5 and a T in your hand. As a number of people have said, the absence of a flush draw on the board is a big plus.


As Rick Nebiolo said, there are a bunch of 4th street cards that would be fine. So I would call.


But if you're a person who's _capable_ of folding the nuts on the flop for intelligent reasons then you have a skill that most people at those limits do not.


Oh no!! Not again!

Rick - There are ten ways two cards from an Omaha-8 hand fit into the flopped straight 7-6-5-4-3. Holding 7-6, with 5-4-3 on the board is the best of the ten, while holding 4-3, with the 7-6-5 on the board is the worst. Holding 5-3 or 5-4, both on the low end, are not much better than holding 4-3.


Here, one other two card combination yet to come on the turn/river, 9-8, will make the nut straight for Caddy. Any single ten, nine, or eight enables a better straight and any seven, six, three, or running pair enables a full house for an opponent. When you put it all together, assuming I have done the counting correctly, there are 160 two-card combos possible on the turn/river that leave the flopped straight as the nut-high hand. The other 830 turn/river two-card combos enable a better hand for high.


Thus, although Caddy has the best high hand after the flop, the odds are about five to one against the seven high straight remaining the best high hand on the river.


Caddy has only a very poor shot at low. Only two-card turn/river combos of ace/deuce, a total of 16 combos (out of 990 possible), make J-T-5-4 a scooper. Thus Caddy is only playing for half the pot and it is a dubious half of the pot.


However, what Caddy should do depends, IMHO. Wouldn’t you like to hold a seven high straight after the flop if you were playing someone heads-up? If betting the flop will drive out opponents, then the chance of an opponent actually holding the necessary two cards to win on the river is lessened.


Omaha-8 games are often loose before the flop and then tight after the flop, especially if there is little pre-flop raising. (If the house collection is taken from each player when he/she has the button, as is done in low limit L.A. games, loose/tight games abound). In such a loose/tight, L.A. style game, if you play a flopped seven high straight very aggressively, you may be able to limit the field sufficiently so that, even though the odds are 5 to 1 against your holding the nuts for high on the river, your non-nut straight will win for high.


Thus what to do, in my humble opinion, depends on the type of game, which may depends on the area in which you are playing. L.A. collection methods favor a different style game than Nevada collection methods. (I'm not familiar with other areas).


Sometimes, usually in private games, you run across opponents who play loosely both pre-flop and post-flop. When there are enough of them in the game, you might characterize the game as loose/loose. In such a game (loose both pre-flop and post-flop), folding J-T-5-4 to a bet, even though you have flopped a seven high straight, the current nuts, probably represents expert play.


Just my opinion.


Buzz