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General Poker Discussion >> Poker Theory

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karlson
enthusiast


Reged: 09/18/02
Posts: 233
Re: The Sklansky-Karlson All In No Limit Holdem Rankings [Re: bigpooch]
      #392014 - 11/01/03 06:23 AM

Thank you very much for pointing this out. I am surprised that no one (myself included) tried this simple calculation by hand. I checked some other ones, but I used intermediate results that were incorrect.

So I did find an error in my code. I will have new numbers posted tomorrow sometime. The correct value for KK is 954.

Sorry about this. I hope David didn't yet put them in his article.

If anyone has conclusive proof that these numbers cost them a place in a tourney, I'll make sure to reimburse him or her.

Victor.

Edit: By the way, the numbers for most hands should not change much, since my mistake was effectively making the BB call with one extra hand. For KK, this was quite significant.

Edited by karlson (11/01/03 06:30 AM)


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bigpooch
old hand


Reged: 09/17/03
Posts: 759
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: The Sklansky-Karlson All In No Limit Holdem Rankings [Re: karlson]
      #392159 - 11/01/03 12:35 PM

Victor:

I just thought intuitively there was something wrong with
that specific number for KK as it is only about 220-1
against the BB holding AA. After your new table is
constructed, it seems more useful to consider a modified
game: suppose the SB states that I have "the hand XY or
better" and then the BB must decide. This seems a much
more useful practical question especially in a NL cash
game or tournament. So even if someone were using your
older numbers for the purposes of a tournment or in a
cash game, I would think the play still had +EV.

Cheers,

"bigpooch" a.k.a. "mangler"


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karlson
enthusiast


Reged: 09/18/02
Posts: 233
Re: The Sklansky-Karlson All In No Limit Holdem Rankings [Re: karlson]
      #392742 - 11/02/03 03:39 AM

As promised, I have revised rankings.

They looked ugly when I posted them, and I don't want to clog up the thread, but you can see them at
http://www.decf.berkeley.edu/~chubukov/rankings.html

Let me know if there are more issues.


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rockoon
journeyman


Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 74
Re: The Sklansky-Karlson All In No Limit Holdem Rankings [Re: bigpooch]
      #394759 - 11/04/03 02:16 AM

Quote:

Victor:

I just thought intuitively there was something wrong with
that specific number for KK as it is only about 220-1
against the BB holding AA. After your new table is
constructed, it seems more useful to consider a modified
game: suppose the SB states that I have "the hand XY or
better" and then the BB must decide. This seems a much
more useful practical question especially in a NL cash
game or tournament. So even if someone were using your
older numbers for the purposes of a tournment or in a
cash game, I would think the play still had +EV.

Cheers,

"bigpooch" a.k.a. "mangler"




I did some research along this line. I did not take into account dead money in the pot or blinds posted. Just a consideration along the lines of two players each get dealt a hand. The first player begins with the entire range of hands and asked the question, what hands can't profitably play? I called this list Grade F.

Then I took the remaining list of hands, the ones that could profitably play, and asked the question, what hands can't profitably play against this list? I called this list Grade E.

I kept doing this until I got down to the 3 hands AA, KK, and QQ.

This produces 6 lists of hands which I have labels "Grade A", "Grade B", "Grade C", .. "Grade F"

Grade A: AA, KK, QQ
Grade B: JJ, TT, AK, AQs
Grade C: 99, 88, 77, 66, AQo, AJ, AT, A9
Grade D: 55, 44, A8, A7, A6, A5, A4, A3s, A2s, KQ, KJ, KT, K9s
Grade E: 33, 22, A3o, A2o, K9o, K8, K7, K6, K5, K4, K3, K2, QJ, QT, Q9, Q8, Q7, Q6, Q5, Q4s, Q3s, Q2s, JT, J9, J8, J7s, J6s, T9, T8s, T7s, 98s
Grade F: Remaining hands


The grades are structured such that if you opponent may hold Grade D or better, you can only profitably go even money against him when you hold grade C or better (the next higher grade)

"AK" is taken to be either "AKs" or "AKo" and so forth.




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clovenhoof
member


Reged: 05/12/03
Posts: 195
Loc: North Vancouver, BC
Shouldn't it be Karlson-Sklansky? (n/m) [Re: David Sklansky]
      #410739 - 11/17/03 11:33 PM



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