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J Chap
journeyman

Reged: 06/12/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Durham, NC

Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT?
#2861637 - 07/13/05 05:54 PM

yo yo yo-

I'm troubled by the fact that I play JJ so differently from the way I play its not-too-distant neighbor, TT.

For instance, on the first hand of a 33 SNG, if I pick up JJ from early position, I'll probably raise to around 8-10x BB. If I pick up TT, I'll probably just limp. One of these plays (or both) has got to be wrong -- I'm thinking it's the TT limp.

Granted, the odds of somebody having two overs on my TT are almost twice the odds of somebody having two overs on my JJ. (10:6, I believe).

Anybody care to explain how YOU distinguish JJ from TT?

J Chap!

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KingDan
member

Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 139

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: J Chap]
#2861673 - 07/13/05 05:57 PM

Raising 8/10x BB is much worse than limping, and I am a big fan of raising even tens Preflop.

3-5x is standard.

How much are you raising AA in this situation?

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The Don
enthusiast

Reged: 06/21/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Baltimore

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: J Chap]
#2861697 - 07/13/05 06:00 PM

I will most likely limp JJ in first position as well. QQ is where I will raise to 95 normally. Raising isn't bad (certainly +CEV if you play flops well) but there are other factors to consider given that you are in a tournament.

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citanul
journeyman

Reged: 07/24/03
Posts: 64

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: J Chap]
#2861721 - 07/13/05 06:02 PM

why on earth are you guys in favor of biggie sized raises?

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J Chap
journeyman

Reged: 06/12/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Durham, NC

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: KingDan]
#2861729 - 07/13/05 06:03 PM

Quote:

How much are you raising AA in this situation?

I'm probably doubling or maybe tripling with AA, depending on position and other callers.

I want my AA's to be reraised pre-flop or, at worst, called by like 2 people.

Raising TT, especially early, irritates me because I will be afraid of any J,Q,K or A on the flop - that's like at least 2/3 of flops right there.

What do you do if your TT raise gets reraised to like 8-10BB?

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johnnybeef
old hand

Reged: 10/25/04
Posts: 878
Loc: its whats for dinner

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: J Chap]
#2861739 - 07/13/05 06:04 PM

Quote:

Anybody care to explain how YOU distinguish JJ from TT?

Sure, if a T shows up on the board when I have JJ, I'm usually not willing to get all of my chips in the center. If a J shows up on the board when i have TT, likewise. Otherwise, they are played the same.

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johnnybeef
old hand

Reged: 10/25/04
Posts: 878
Loc: its whats for dinner

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: citanul]
#2861743 - 07/13/05 06:05 PM

Quote:

why on earth are you guys in favor of biggie sized raises?

do you prefer extra value raises? maybe he just likes wendys

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Matt R.
enthusiast

Reged: 03/29/05
Posts: 351
Loc: Indianapolis

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: citanul]
#2861800 - 07/13/05 06:11 PM

Quote:

why on earth are you guys in favor of biggie sized raises?

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Matt R.
enthusiast

Reged: 03/29/05
Posts: 351
Loc: Indianapolis

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: J Chap]
#2861839 - 07/13/05 06:15 PM

Judging by your reasoning for raising so big with TT, I think you most likely just need to work on your postflop skills. You don't ALWAYS have to bet out on any flop if you raised preflop -- I see way too many new players that do this (Super System anyone?). Make a normal 3-3.5x raise and just play the flop if you get called. Be less inclined to make a continuation bet on a bad flop if you get 3+ callers. Of course there's a lot more to it, but those are some simple rules I usually go by.

OOPS -- You said you make big raises with JJ, not TT. Anyway, the main content in my post is still the same. And you definitely can raise TT preflop too (just please stop making it 8-10x the BB).

Edited by Matt R. (07/13/05 06:17 PM)

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EverettKings
journeyman

Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Williamsburg, VA

Re: Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT? [Re: J Chap]
#2861885 - 07/13/05 06:19 PM

Quote:

I'm troubled by the fact that I play JJ so differently from the way I play its not-too-distant neighbor, TT.

For instance, on the first hand of a 33 SNG, if I pick up JJ from early position, I'll probably raise to around 8-10x BB. If I pick up TT, I'll probably just limp. One of these plays (or both) has got to be wrong -- I'm thinking it's the TT limp.

Granted, the odds of somebody having two overs on my TT are almost twice the odds of somebody having two overs on my JJ. (10:6, I believe).

Anybody care to explain how YOU distinguish JJ from TT?

J Chap!

At level 1, with 10/15 blinds, raising 3-5x is pretty worthless. Raising JJ up to 90-100 ish is what I'd do, though 8-10x might be over the top. It gets you in a big pot out of position vs a hand that's likely quite good. Alternatively you win some pretty petty blinds. So a good sized raise (neither huge nor small) will strike the right balance IMO. I'd also experiment with limping JJ in EP, as some prefer it. TT I always limp.

To the OP's question....

The reason why JJ pwns TT is because of the J. With TT you have another broadway overcard to deal with, and AJ, KJ, etc type hands are an issue. With JJ you cut down severely on the number of playable hands that trouble you.

For the same reason, there's a huge gap from JJ to QQ, and a bigger gap from QQ to KK (as now only one overcard can be hand and one hand in the game puts you in trouble).

TT to 99 is less significant because hands with a T in it aren't as frequently played. Basically I'm saying that the difference in consecutive pairs increases as they get bigger. I treat TT and 99 very close to the same, not quite premiums. JJ is entering into monster-land, for the reasons above.

Thats my 2 cent'

Kings

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