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Limit Texas Hold'em >> Mid- and High-Stakes Hold'em

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Steve Giufre
member


Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 101
Loc: Long Beach, Ca
Post for david...
      #2433068 - 05/19/05 04:07 PM

David was kind enough to agree to respond to a post regarding blind defense. It seems to be one of the topics that keeps coming up lately, and there has been a lot of different on ideas on how we should be dealing with some common situations. I've been discussing this with Hiatus Over quite a bit lately, and I feel he is better suited to make this post than I am. This was written by him a few minutes ago:


I have had the pleasure to meet a bunch of mid-high posters in the last few months...Like dorks when we get together we talk poker-poker-poker. Everyone seems to be doing well which is real encouraging but one interesting thing that I have noticed is all of us winning players are taking many different approaches to defending our BB and to a lesser extent our SB...In HPFAP when discussing BB defense against a steal raise the advice given seems much tighter than what some extremely succesful high limit online players are reporting they are defending with. For example. During a live game with a bunch of 2+2'ers in it...A strong playing Cut-Off open raised. He is tough and tenacious. I was in the BB and folded T7o face-up and asked if this was a huge mistake. All 3 strong playing 2+2'ers told me I was making a huge mistake here. They said I was getting 3.5-1 closing the action and that I was way better than 3.5-1 against the range of hands...which is obviously true when all-in but I was always under the impression that the fact that u have no playing adavantages and a horrible implied odds hand out of position turned this into a relatively easy fold.

HPFAP on defending the BB against steal raises..."Against weak players who won't make good use of their position advantage on the flop u can call with hands as weak as those in Group 8. Howeever, it still might be best to throw some of the smaller non-suited connectors away...If someone calls in between you and your opponet or if your opponent play well, then you must tighten up some. But you can still play a lot of hands, perhaps Group 1-6" so we have a big discrepancy here between 2 sources I trust...1. the book I tore apart for 2 years straight and is the #1 reason why 3 years later I can go sit in any live 100-200 game in the country and feel like a favorite and have the bankroll to be comfortable....#2. a number of guys who play as tough as they come it seems and are bashing heads with some of the strongest players around and making a lot of money.

So, what should I be defending my blinds with? I look at the best Party Poker players and they are all taking different approaches...2 of the most respected players in the game for example are miles away on defending...one folds his BB to a steal raise 37 percent of the time, the other 58...they are both destroying the game. Also I have heard some stuff being thrown around 2+2 by simulators (Peter Runs, well respected winning player for 1) that u can play any 2 suited to a raise as long as its atleast 3-way...I thought and still think this cant be true. Can it? The math works all-in, but just doesnt seem right. 1 more example...I am teaching my very intelligent cousin limit hold em. Gave him pokerstove he is a math guy and is doing well with it. He sent me a hand where MP open raised...button 3-bet and my cousin called 87s in the BB...I told him this is way wrong, but when u plug it in to poker stove the math works out about even and it seems like it is a good implied odds spot. One last question for DS or whoever is good at searching the archives...I have a bet with JV about the old 73s thread that caught storm a year or so ago, I think it was mixed in with some Tommy Angelo is crazy post...Did DS say that we should always be defending 73s in the BB to raise HU or 3 way? I wont tell u what side we have, but I will tell u that the loser will have some embarrassing consequences for being wrong. Anyways...hope this gets some good discussion going about actual poker. Im sure I will have many more questions examples along the way but just wanted to throw this out there to start since David was kind of enough to say he would help us out with this.


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HiatusOver
member


Reged: 10/11/02
Posts: 122
Re: Post for david... [Re: Steve Giufre]
      #2433235 - 05/19/05 04:23 PM

Anyone who wants to chime in is welcome OBV, certainly not just for DS

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J.A.Sucker
old hand


Reged: 09/03/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Re: Post for david... [Re: Steve Giufre]
      #2433354 - 05/19/05 04:37 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that when getting 3.5-1 odds, you should be calling a lot because you're getting a good price. If you flop something, just continue to the river. You can play like a wuss oftentimes, because the money is going in anyway. In other words, extraction of value will occur because your opponent is tenacious and tough. However, you'll not have as many positional issues since you're not gonna put in as much action.

Another reason to call a lot is so that they'll stop stealing from you so easily. I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free. If you aren't thinking like this, then I don't think you are a favorite in a 100-200 game. I'm serious.


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HiatusOver
member


Reged: 10/11/02
Posts: 122
Re: Post for david... [Re: Steve Giufre]
      #2433361 - 05/19/05 04:38 PM

To further explain the huge discrepancy...The range that these loose blind defenders (who are winning a lot of money, although maybe despite these standards) are using includes basically any hand with a face card or ace in it (Q4o is definitely coming)...almost all suited hands with very few exceptions...2 gappers down to 64o, a lot of unsuited 3-gappers (one of the best big limit players online defended his blind with 74o just yesterday against a normal Hi-Jack open raise and I am 99 percent sure it wasnt a misclick he defends weak all the time). Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!

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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Post for david... [Re: HiatusOver]
      #2433403 - 05/19/05 04:42 PM

Quote:

Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!




I hate to poop the party before it's started, but maybe it's because there are a huge range of BB hands for which defending is extremely close to breakeven, meaning it hardly matters what you do?


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skp
old hand


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 737
Loc: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Re: Post for david... [Re: Steve Giufre]
      #2433490 - 05/19/05 04:52 PM

The 73 suited thread involved an early position limper, a late position raiser and you calling with 73 suited from the bb.

I said in that thread that to make the call, you have to be a very good postflop player. DS corrected me and said that this was an easy call even if your postflop skills wre average.


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HiatusOver
member


Reged: 10/11/02
Posts: 122
Re: Post for david... [Re: skp]
      #2433578 - 05/19/05 05:00 PM

Thank u SKP

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Steve Giufre
member


Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 101
Loc: Long Beach, Ca
Re: Post for david... [Re: Nate tha' Great]
      #2433653 - 05/19/05 05:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!




I hate to poop the party before it's started, but maybe it's because there are a huge range of BB hands for which defending is extremely close to breakeven, meaning it hardly matters what you do?




Yeah point taken a lot of these spots are pretty close to break even. But then again after a certain point, dont you have to start looking at those marginal spots and how to play them correctly in order to take your game to the next level? In Hiatus 10 7 hand example. He was under the impression it was a clear fold, and other top players thought it was a clear call. Somebody has to be way off base, no?

Also there are different spots he didnt mention that I think are worth discussing. For example, how about hands like 109s out of the SB agaist a cutoff raise with a normmal range. How much does it depend on how likely the bb is to come along? How much does it matter how strong or weak both players are postflop? Is it correct to pretty much defend with any two out of the BB when faciing a raise from the SB? How often should we be three betting rather than just calling? How about the range of hands we should should be three betting out of the BB VS a loose button raiser? How much should his postflop tendancies effect our decision?

I'm not really expecting anyone to come in and answer all these questions, and of course I have my own thoughts on all of this althuogh I'd be the first to admit I'm sure I dont play all these spots optimally. I guess what I'm trying to say is there should be plenty to discuss here. You were defintely one of the people I was hoping to hear from on this stuff.


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Your Mom
addict


Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 624
Re: Post for david... [Re: Nate tha' Great]
      #2433740 - 05/19/05 05:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!




I hate to poop the party before it's started, but maybe it's because there are a huge range of BB hands for which defending is extremely close to breakeven, meaning it hardly matters what you do?




That's been my opinion for a while. Seems like variance is the only difference.


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HiatusOver
member


Reged: 10/11/02
Posts: 122
Re: Post for david... [Re: J.A.Sucker]
      #2433981 - 05/19/05 05:49 PM

OK, so we have some people (who by the way play 1500 hands per day) saying that it doesnt matter because its close, not excepting that sorry...And then JA Sucker tells me I cant beat a 100-200 game even though I have all this money that says that I can beat a 100-200 game. JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever, so whatever u decide to do is fine with me, but if u are gonna respond so bluntly and knowitall'ish I think maybe a loose range of hands that u defend with and an explanation why HPFAP doesnt agree with u would be nice. Basically all u said is call a lot, check-call, check-call...check.

Also, what does this line mean...?
"I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free."

What does someone being a non-defender have to do with them attacking your blinds...I know a lot of tighter players from the BB who are huge on playing hands in position and attacking blinds


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