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Limit Texas Hold'em >> Small Stakes Shorthanded

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MEbenhoe
addict


Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 410
Loc: La Crosse, WI
Another SH Starting Chart
      #1256134 - 11/13/04 03:27 PM

This was my attempt at a revised starting hand chart as a take off of SlantNGo's chart.


LP= Limp in a passive game
LA= Limp in all games
L2-3= Limp only with 2 or 3 Limpers in in front of you
R/C= Raise or Call
R/F= Raise or Fold
R= Raise
F= Fold
RR= Reraise


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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1256153 - 11/13/04 03:33 PM

If UTG raises and gets two callers folding 66 or any other pocket pair from the button is not a good idea IMO as a cold call means you'll only have to make up 2.5-3BB postflop off of your PF call, which most of the time is cake.

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MEbenhoe
addict


Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 410
Loc: La Crosse, WI
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: Schneids]
      #1256211 - 11/13/04 04:01 PM

Quote:

If UTG raises and gets two callers folding 66 or any other pocket pair from the button is not a good idea IMO as a cold call means you'll only have to make up 2.5-3BB postflop off of your PF call, which most of the time is cake.




I agree with this statement. Calling in this position is close to limping on the button with 3 limpers in front of you.

I think the problem is for the "facing a raise" section I was assuming an open raiser with no callers. When making such a chart there are so many variables that could come into play its impossible to account for them all.


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jayheaps
enthusiast


Reged: 11/12/04
Posts: 336
Loc: Chicago, IL
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: Schneids]
      #1256325 - 11/13/04 04:44 PM

nice chrat. my biggest issues though is with limp with baby suited aces in a passive games. those are incredibly tough to play out of position and the odds of flopping a flush arent good enough to justify this play.

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MEbenhoe
addict


Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 410
Loc: La Crosse, WI
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: jayheaps]
      #1256419 - 11/13/04 05:32 PM

Quote:

nice chrat. my biggest issues though is with limp with baby suited aces in a passive games. those are incredibly tough to play out of position and the odds of flopping a flush arent good enough to justify this play.




The reason you can limp with these in passive games is due to the fact that you will rarely get raised preflop and also you won't have to put in 3 bets on the flop to see your draw like you might have to in many aggro games. Also in a passive game its less likely that a larger ace would raise you when you hit. So the times when you're no good you will not lose as much.


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SlantNGo
member


Reged: 06/08/04
Posts: 133
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1256702 - 11/13/04 07:45 PM

Your chart is definitely much more "complete" than mine, i.e. I do not address the # of limpers. However, I'm in the process of adding a few C2's (call if 2 have limped before you) for suited connectors and small pairs.

I noticed that your chart doesn't deal with plays in the blinds. One crucial aspect missing from my chart is how to play vs. a steal in the BB. Also, I'm not sure if my stealing standards in the SB are correct. Basically, everything I had as a call in the SB are now RC (raise if all fold to you, call if there are limpers) except for T9s and lower.


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Trix
veteran


Reged: 08/10/03
Posts: 1568
Loc: Denmark
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1256909 - 11/13/04 09:08 PM

Hi, hijacking the thread a little, hope you dont mind.

Since you are going to play alot in the blinds I was wondering what people do there.

This is what I call/raise, which probably is too tight, but a start:

Positions are position of the openraiser, its folded to the BB.
Hands behind the "|" are what I 3bet.


UTG : 55 AT KJ QJ A7s K9s QTs JTs T9s| TT AQ AJs KQs
MP : 55 AT KJ QJ A7s K9s Q9s J9s T9s| 99 AQ AJs KQs
CO : 55 A9 KT QT A4s K8s Q9s J9s 98s|88 AJ KQ ATs QJs
BTN : 55 A8 K9 Q9 JT Axs K7s Q8s J9s 97s 65s |77 AT KJ A9s QJs
SB : 22 A4 K8 Q9 J9 T9 98 Axs K5s Q7s J8s 76s 75s |77 AQ AJs KQs

SB Openlimp: |44 A5 K8 T9+ Axs Kxs Q8s 65s 97s J8s

Any comments ?


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MEbenhoe
addict


Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 410
Loc: La Crosse, WI
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: Trix]
      #1257057 - 11/13/04 10:10 PM

Quote:

Hi, hijacking the thread a little, hope you dont mind.

Since you are going to play alot in the blinds I was wondering what people do there.

This is what I call/raise, which probably is too tight, but a start:

Positions are position of the openraiser, its folded to the BB.
Hands behind the "|" are what I 3bet.


UTG : 55 AT KJ QJ A7s K9s QTs JTs T9s| TT AQ AJs KQs
MP : 55 AT KJ QJ A7s K9s Q9s J9s T9s| 99 AQ AJs KQs
CO : 55 A9 KT QT A4s K8s Q9s J9s 98s|88 AJ KQ ATs QJs
BTN : 55 A8 K9 Q9 JT Axs K7s Q8s J9s 97s 65s |77 AT KJ A9s QJs
SB : 22 A4 K8 Q9 J9 T9 98 Axs K5s Q7s J8s 76s 75s |77 AQ AJs KQs

SB Openlimp: |44 A5 K8 T9+ Axs Kxs Q8s 65s 97s J8s

Any comments ?




I defintiely still need to work on making a chart for the blinds. However, something I noticed right away when looking at your standards for defending you BB is that you have a cut off for pocket pairs. Why? You can defend you BB in this situation with any pocket pair. You're getting 3.5:1 on your money and all you'd need to make up to make this worth a call is to make 1.5 BBs when you hit a set, which is quite easy in a heads up pot such as this.

What hands I play in these types of situations is heavily player dependent. I'll think of it for awhile and expand this chart a bit more.

Also come on everyone, I want some input on this thing. It'd be nice if we could formulate a somewhat general chart. I have to admit some of my chart already was put together from the knowledge of some much better players than I, and reading posts in this forum, so lets expand upon this.


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6471849653
member


Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 108
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1257278 - 11/13/04 11:48 PM

For people with little experience they would likely do better by thinking of reraising/cold calling with one or two steps better minimum hands than what the raiser has, while when on the BB heads up (or not) one needs about the same minimum standard hands as the raiser has (minus e.g. JT, plus e.g. 22, 43s; XXs, 75 type defenses might be OK vs. loose stealers).

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kiddo
enthusiast


Reged: 12/02/02
Posts: 335
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden, Europe
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1257783 - 11/14/04 04:28 AM

Limping Axs first in from MP must be a misstake. Its raise or fold, you dont want blinds to come in with any2 hitting a pair of 6s (with 62o) beating your A5s and pair of 5s.

Facing a raiser is almot impossible to view in a chart because it is totally player dependent. If they have PFR% below 5% or above 15% makes all the difference in the world. And if u want to see it as how to play against a "normal" player you must define what limits we are talking about because normal is very different at 1/2 and 10/20.

Reraise hands like KJo and KTs could be a major misstake against many players. K-high hands are tricky cause they will often lose showdown against A-high. Since you can face a cap or a coldcaller/reraiser behind, and since you dont want to be dominated, you shouldnt reraise hands that are in the lower range of his raising standards.

First in on button I raise with a lot: T9, 76s, Q9o, K5o. First in I dont play 33 and 22, I dont like the idea of almost always be sitting with 4th pair when flop comes, its very hard to know where u are, u have to bet flop and turn and I dont like it.


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MAxx
stranger


Reged: 10/14/03
Posts: 7
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1258722 - 11/14/04 02:50 PM

the limping of Ace little suiteds from EP looks a little suspect to me also. i guess if you were in a truly passive short handed table it would be ok... but i have not seen too many of those beasts. passive and shorthanded almost sounds like an oxymoron to me... at least at party 5/10. if i am first in with them from lp, i am coming in with a raise.

i fold the low pp's (2,3,4)in many situations, when i could open with them.

do you guys really 3bet pf with A9s and ATo? wo


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MEbenhoe
addict


Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 410
Loc: La Crosse, WI
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MAxx]
      #1258986 - 11/14/04 04:30 PM

Quote:

do you guys really 3bet pf with A9s and ATo? wo




I will admit these can be borderline 3 bets. One thing I would never do here is call though. If you're not going to 3 bet with these hands throw them away.


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ddubois
journeyman


Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 97
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1483737 - 01/05/05 08:00 PM

Quote:

When making such a chart there are so many variables that could come into play its impossible to account for them all.



I understand your sentiment, but I disagree with your conclusion. It's possible, it's just alot of work. Check out: the spreadsheet here. The awesome thing about this spreadsheet is that it is more than just a reference chart to look at, it actually interacts to quiz you. Thus, I would think this would be much more effective at really drilling the knowledge into your head, and more fun. I applaud anyone who takes on the task of extending it to either SSH's recommendations, or a more specialized HUSH data set.


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Mr. Graff
enthusiast


Reged: 10/15/04
Posts: 385
Loc: Gone fishing
Reraising AJ, AT and KQ in UTG+1, CO and button? [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1486067 - 01/06/05 08:38 AM

Is that really so standard? If facing someone with my own PFR standards (around 13%) I usually fold the above hands because of risk of domination. I need a raise from a loose VPIP50+, 20+ PFR to raise those hands. Am I giving up too much? Do I respect raises too much?

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bds
stranger


Reged: 02/04/04
Posts: 4
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: ddubois]
      #1486643 - 01/06/05 10:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Check out: the spreadsheet here. T



The link does not work, but if you cut and paste the url, you get there.


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ddubois
journeyman


Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 97
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: ddubois]
      #1488402 - 01/06/05 03:23 PM

Sorry about the bad link, it's:

http://www.kingscascade.com/Poker.html

It used to let you choose whether you wanted to use WLLH or TEPFAP starting standards, and give advice that sounded "in theme" with the text. Not sure why that option is removed in the most recent version.


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MrBruno
journeyman


Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 52
Paradise (5 max) - use MP or CO on the chart ??? n/m [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1502548 - 01/08/05 10:34 PM

Paradise only supports 5 max, should I being using the MP or CO column ???

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easypete
journeyman


Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 70
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Paradise (5 max) - use MP or CO on the chart ??? n/m [Re: MrBruno]
      #1502580 - 01/08/05 10:40 PM

Just play like UTG folded.

First to act in a 5-handed game is MP.


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Rudbaeck
addict


Reged: 07/12/04
Posts: 555
Loc: Sweden
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1569795 - 01/19/05 07:09 PM

Is there a more printer friendly version of this somewhere?

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omahahahaha
stranger


Reged: 06/15/04
Posts: 3
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #1682724 - 02/06/05 04:05 PM

Quote:

This was my attempt at a revised starting hand chart as a take off of SlantNGo's chart.


LP= Limp in a passive game
LA= Limp in all games
L2-3= Limp only with 2 or 3 Limpers in in front of you
R/C= Raise or Call
R/F= Raise or Fold
R= Raise
F= Fold
RR= Reraise




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bweiser8311962
journeyman


Reged: 08/11/04
Posts: 64
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #2228667 - 04/24/05 06:42 AM

Why are pocket 10s a fold to a 3-bet and A/K unsuited a fold? Pocket 10s vs. A/K unsuited preflop is a 57 percent favorite.

Just curious what the logic is for this.

(Just had this situation and won a nice pot with my 10s).


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waffle
member


Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 117
Loc: Dallas - 2/4 and 3/6
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: bweiser8311962]
      #2228727 - 04/24/05 07:14 AM

22 is a favorite over AK, but this doesn't mean you should cap with 22 facing a 3-bet.. each hand should be evaluated against the weighted range of your opponents' possible hands. Don't compare them head-to-head in a vacuum.

Edit: Also, reviving threads that are 2 months old is bad form.

Edited by waffle (04/24/05 07:15 AM)


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Sinnister
enthusiast


Reged: 10/15/04
Posts: 335
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: MEbenhoe]
      #2372194 - 05/11/05 06:14 PM

u are the man, does this chart consistently beat 6 max?

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TStoneMBD
enthusiast


Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Rome, NY
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: Sinnister]
      #2372308 - 05/11/05 06:27 PM

dude dont bump posts that are 6 months old. and no. you wont beat 6max just by studying this chart. there is more to the game.

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donger
stranger


Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 5
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: Sinnister]
      #2372310 - 05/11/05 06:28 PM

Quote:

u are the man, does this chart consistently beat 6 max?




I didn't know the chart could play 6 max!


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skoal2k4
addict


Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 547
Loc: Brighton, CO
Re: Another SH Starting Chart [Re: TStoneMBD]
      #2372470 - 05/11/05 06:52 PM

Quote:


dude dont bump posts that are 6 months old.





bump


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