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General Poker Discussion >> Beginners Questions

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Sredni Vashtar
newbie


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 42
Think about Shania
      #533592 - 02/18/04 01:09 AM

Here is a little post that appeared on www.unitedpokerforum.com by SV:

Interested in opinions on passage outlined after the full text at the bottom.


It goes into Yoga, now Shania, a little bit, a very simple concept really. It has been called many things by others (both mortals and non-mortals), this is just the Sredni version:

Reposted from Sredni Vashtar:

Think about Shania.

I used to call this Yoga, sometimes Yoda (as in that little creature in Star Wars), but now in tribute to Shania Twain, I'll call it Shania. As some of you might know, Shania Twain is rather fond of long yellow brown polecat ferrets named Sredni. Who can blame her? Have you seen Mutt?

Shania is totality. Shania is the culmination of actions and inactions. Shania is the everything. Think about Shania. Imagine.


Sredni will show how this works Under The Gun.

Often, you will hear someone put worth how much a certain hand is worth. For example, they might postulate that AA is worth three times the big blind or some such number. But without a context this is not very meaningful.

Let's look at how this might work with AA in limit holdem.

In the first case, a player only plays AA UTG. That's it, nothing else. This doesn't sound like the kinda guy who you would find drinking beer at noon on Tuesday, does he? So his dusty profit from AA is X and X=Shania. Shania lusts for more.

In the second case, Shania's life is spiced up a bit: a player only plays AA and 23s. That means when he plays it's 60% that he has AA and 40% that he has 23s. So the profit from AA is X, the profit from 23s is Y. Shania consists of the sum of X and Y.

In the third case, the player plays all hands. His Shania is like the Edmund Fitzgerald on that big lake they call Gitche gumee. In this case Shania is equal to the sum of all the profits/losses.


It should be clear from this set of examples that spefically AA would make the most profit by far in the third case, second most in the next case, and least so in the first case. All of this is assuming that your opponents are clinically alive and have at least one sensory organ functioning.


It would be interesting to note what the profit might be in the second case for 23s. It would have the protection of big brother AA, so clearly it would make more (or lose less) than in the third case, where the UTG would get action aplenty.




Now to further delve into this, let's look more closely at the third case. Playing all the hands, at some point you would come across a hand that was near break even along the continuum. Call this hand XX. We could also call this Shania's fulcrum. Naturally this hand will be different depending on game conditions. Also, as we have seen, the hand range itself would affect XX. The system itself is affected by the membership.

So the hand range you play (and how you play it) is ultimately determined by the best Shania, and it does not matter where AA or JTs make a certain amount.


There is an interesting theoretical question that Sredni has pondered for quite some time. It might seem obvious that by taking individual hands that in themselves apparently make money (let's say you use hand histories or computer simulations or expert opinions), that it would necessarily improve your Shania. Sredni has the opinion of one well known theorist who has privately communicated that he does not feel that adding such a hand necessarily improves Shania. It goes against common sense, but nonetheless it might be true.

It also might be very well true that you could add a hand that was in itself negative EV, but improved the Shania. For example, many experts have written to occasionally play 78s or some such hand UTG. This is done to improve Shania, as 78s, in isolation, probably does not make money UTG.


Ultimately, the point here is that Shania is the most important considering in your play. Sredni has chosen a simple UTG situation to demonstrate this point, but it applies to all aspects of the game. We have also touched upon Shania's fulcrum ever so gently.


Thanks for reading this far, Sredni apologizes for not being more brief.

In the meantime, think about Shania. Sredni is.


Sredni Vashtar,

who is still the one.


"There is an interesting theoretical question that Sredni has pondered for quite some time. It might seem obvious that by taking individual hands that in themselves apparently make money (let's say you use hand histories or computer simulations or expert opinions), that it would necessarily improve your Shania. Sredni has the opinion of one well known theorist who has privately communicated that he does not feel that adding such a hand necessarily improves Shania. It goes against common sense, but nonetheless it might be true. "

Is it possible to add a positive to a positive and get less?

SV.





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ptgarner1
stranger


Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 13
Loc: Arkansas
Re: Think about Shania [Re: Sredni Vashtar]
      #533610 - 02/18/04 01:34 AM

why post such worthless drivel.. if you insist at least add pictures. the only thing more worthless than your long article is this reply to it..

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Sredni Vashtar
newbie


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 42
Re: Think about Shania [Re: ptgarner1]
      #533615 - 02/18/04 01:42 AM

From the esteemed ptgarner1 bio:

"took up "serious" playing in March -03.. reading almost every book out and training on computer programs... 1st desperate goal is to get on the Party Poker boat..working VERY hard at this..slightly compulsive by nature."

Without understanding Shania, the only boat you will be on is the Titanic.

SV


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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Think about Shania [Re: ptgarner1]
      #533618 - 02/18/04 01:46 AM

Quote:

why post such worthless drivel.. if you insist at least add pictures. the only thing more worthless than your long article is this reply to it..




Arkansas, eh?


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OrangeHeat
addict


Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 446
Loc: Syracuse, New York
Re: Think about Shania [Re: Sredni Vashtar]
      #534212 - 02/18/04 01:35 PM

Quote:

retail manager




This says it all.

Orange


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CrackerZack
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/23/03
Posts: 3797
Loc: NY
Why don't you post here more often? [Re: Sredni Vashtar]
      #534335 - 02/18/04 02:29 PM

Once again tremendous insight in an abstract way not seen here outside the posts of Tommy Angelo. But not existing in the same universe.

I hope the current replies are the norm from what will come from this forum. If they are, this place has gone down hill more than we thought.

Bravo.


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Homer
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 5909
Re: Think about Shania [Re: ptgarner1]
      #534373 - 02/18/04 02:44 PM

why post such worthless drivel.. if you insist at least add pictures. the only thing more worthless than your long article is this reply to it..

One man's garbage is another man's gold.

-- Homer (another man)


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OrangeHeat
addict


Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 446
Loc: Syracuse, New York
Re: Why don't you post here more often? [Re: CrackerZack]
      #534386 - 02/18/04 02:50 PM

I am not sure why the retail manager from Arkansas felt the need to jump in and post some babble - he obviously didn't take the time to comprehend anything.

Anywhooo after reading Sredni's post I am sure I would not want to play this man in poker - he expressed a deeper more fundamental knowledge of the game than I have.

His wrighting voice seems to protray him as being in Poker Zen. I hope to be there someday as well.

Orange


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Ulysses
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 5519
Re: Think about Shania [Re: Sredni Vashtar]
      #534451 - 02/18/04 03:19 PM

Quote:

In the meantime, think about Shania. Sredni is.




Fantastic post, as usual. Every time I get a small pair in relatively early position, I think of Shania. Now, I haven't known that's what I'm doing, but that's what I've been doing.


Quote:

Is it possible to add a positive to a positive and get less?




I believe so. In the case of our friend who plays AA and 23s, his adding of the "profitable" QJs might get him enough extra action throughout that now the 23s becomes so terribly unprofitable that his Shania is in fact lowered.


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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
great post [nm] [Re: Sredni Vashtar]
      #534479 - 02/18/04 03:29 PM



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