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Limit Texas Hold'em >> Small Stakes Shorthanded

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ZeeJustin
veteran


Reged: 07/21/03
Posts: 1213
Loc: Northern VA (near DC)
Not sure how I should have played this hand
      #494126 - 01/25/04 12:30 AM

I feel like I could have played this hand better.

LoosePassiveFish posts small blind (5)
FoxyPlayer posts big blind (10)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZeeJustin [ T , A ]
ZeeJustin raises (20) to 20
vostok folds.
DecentPlayer raises (30) to 30
MikeMcD10 folds.
LoosePassiveFish raises (35) to 40
FoxyPlayer folds.
ZeeJustin calls (20)
DecentPlayer calls (10)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3 , Q , 2 ]
LoosePassiveFish bets (10)
ZeeJustin calls (10)
DecentPlayer calls (10)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ A ]
LoosePassiveFish bets (20)
ZeeJustin calls (20)
DecentPlayer calls (20)
** Dealing River ** : [ 9 ]
LoosePassiveFish bets (20)
ZeeJustin raises (40) to 40
DecentPlayer folds.
LoosePassiveFish calls (20)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $298 | Rake: $2

LoosePassiveFish had K K

Edited by ZeeJustin (01/25/04 12:34 AM)


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daryn
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 2759
Loc: Boston, MA
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: ZeeJustin]
      #494133 - 01/25/04 12:46 AM

i hope you didn't designate Nolwenn "decent player"

that would be quite the misnomer


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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: ZeeJustin]
      #494192 - 01/25/04 02:06 AM

I don't know any other way to play it, unless possibily raising the flop and hoping to drive out DecentPlayer's possible better ace (and to maybe give you a better idea about whether the ace is a clean out)?

I think you did not play the hand poorly.


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naphand
addict


Reged: 06/16/03
Posts: 550
Loc: Bournemouth, UK
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: ZeeJustin]
      #494496 - 01/25/04 09:12 AM

You know that the SB has to have quite a hand - if he's normally passive and is raising from the blinds, he has to be on AK, AA, KK (possibly QQ). Does he cap with good suited cards or QQ from there? Probably not - its already 3 bets to him and he would want to feel he was ahead.

The flop looks OK but the Q could be CO kicker (?) to an A. CO could have a strong A, KQ or good pair (TT or more) so the Q may have missed him. SB's bet could be nothing, but if he is passive it does not look like the Q is a problem. A raise here by you may not be a great idea, as SB will likely re-raise if he has AA or KK, and if CO has AQ/QQ he might be ready to raise, which makes matters tricky. Besides, the draw may be all you have so I would rather keep CO in, or pay only 1 more bet to see the Turn. I would call the flop as you did.

Turn is possibly the one card that will give you the chance to find out what people have - you might even be leading here, so I am tempted to raise SB's bet. It is less likely SB has AA now, so it looks like AK or more likely KK (QQ still possible though) and a flat call from him should tell you KK. If CO has AQ you will know from his reaction to your raise (unless he likes to get tricky - but why do that against 2 good hands here?), he surely raises AQ/QQ, but likely folds KQ, JJ or less (do you think - or will he call down?). It's close, but I am tempted to raise the Turn, even if you are behind you still have the nut-flush outs, and you might get CO to fold AJ.

River - no comments needed.


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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: naphand]
      #494657 - 01/25/04 01:41 PM

I wouldn't raise the turn and here's why:

1. The CO only called the flop. That makes it very possible he has Ace-something (probably dominating you), and isn't folding to your raise. Likewise, you might also drive out SB. This is one of those hands where you are now definitely ahead, or definitely behind, so when you're definitely behind, you're probably going to pay 3-bets -- yet you can't fold because of your flush draw. And when you're definitely ahead, you may not extract much more out of them by raising.
2. By raising, if the cutoff has a hand like JJ, he's for sure going to fold. The pot is large, but not large enough where we'd rather him folding a two-outer instead of calling. Same can be said about SB, if a hand such as this is his holding.


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gonores
old hand


Reged: 01/20/03
Posts: 821
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: ZeeJustin]
      #494913 - 01/25/04 06:16 PM

Other than at least considering laying this down preflop, I think I'd play it the exact same way.

Good hand


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naphand
addict


Reged: 06/16/03
Posts: 550
Loc: Bournemouth, UK
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: Schneids]
      #494936 - 01/25/04 06:43 PM

Good points but, I think we have enough of a pot here to make it worth trying to win, rather than let the other two draw out. A raise is likely called by the SB IMO, and even if CO or SB folds the pot is the same size as if you called and let him stay to draw on you (only he is not drawing on you any more). If you miss the flush, you may still win it against SB, who has to catch a 2-outer K to beat you (though we don't know that).

What happens if you miss the flush? SB bets the River, you are surely calling, then you still have to face the prospect of CO raising behind you (only he has an extra card on the board to beat you). A raise on the Turn may get re-raised, sure but you can take that as meaning you are behind, and you still have the flush outs, whereas a raise on the River with no flush, and you have no *improvement* left in the tank, and less information to judge the others on.

I don't automatically put CO on A-something either, it is quite likely but, it could easily be KQ or JJ or less. He could easily have put you on A-something for the same reasons, and will not be sure of his position either (unless he has AQ/QQ when he can be reasonably sure he is ahead). Did he call the flop with just an A overcard? against another possible strong A? Surely he is either drawing to something, has a pair like JJ or has AQ/KQ. Only one of these is ahead of you, so I go ahead and raise.

Would you not raise QQ or AQ on this flop? SB probably just puts you on a Q, not necessarily QQ so calls or re-raises the flop. And CO would be hoping you have a good A and that another A shows up. Not a flop to slow play QQ with, I think, or AQ. So, I think he is less likely to have these holdings.

If you catch your flush, you won't get much action on the River, so I think you have to get going on the Turn, with TP and nut-flush draw.



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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: naphand]
      #494986 - 01/25/04 07:32 PM

Quote:

Good points but, I think we have enough of a pot here to make it worth trying to win, rather than let the other two draw out.




I think the point is that a raise is not often going to significantly help our chances of winning a pot we shouldn't have won anyway. It almost exactly requires CO to hold KQ for it to be worthwhile (since this is the only hand we're beating of his, where he still has 5-outs to catch us... all others are two outers, and, in my opinion, worth letting him see one more card for one bet), and that's only if he folds it. And considering CO did not raise the flop, I think it's unlikely he has KQ (or AQ). CO will still call our raise cold with AK, and with AJ (I say this because if he 3-bet AJ preflop, he's not laying down his top pair he just acquired), so, the raise does nothing to improve our chances of winning the hand (while we have put in an extra bet with a worse hand) -- and we still have SB to worry about and still fearing a 3-bet from either opponent. Since we HAVE to call the third bet because of the flush draw, we just paid three bets to GET to the river with top pair (and probably have to fold when we miss the flush?), when we could have just called the turn, then just called the non-heart river, for only two, AND received a showdown. I DO think it's pretty safe to put the CO on EXACTLY a PP, AK, or AJ. Because of this, I think a raise is counter-productive since in the PP case, we're getting them to fold a two-outer (I think it's fine to let him call for one-bet...personal preference. Looking long term it's -EV for him and +EV for us), and the AK/AJ cases he's not folding and it just cost us one (or more) bets than it should have to see a showdown on the times we didn't improve. And if you advocate raising the turn, calling a three-bet, then check-folding the river if no flush, then that's a totally terrible outcome to the hand in comparison to calling the turn and calling the river.

IMO if the CO has AA, QQ, or some other monster, the turn is where they will make their raise. I wouldn't fear having to pay off a river raise if their hand is already made by the turn -- especially with the flush draw on the board. I think part of what you've said in your post is my point for not raising the turn: Too often you're giving away extra bets when you're behind (how about a 3-bet from someone on the turn?), and too little you're getting extra bets when you're ahead. Why put in an extra bet on the turn, with a draw, when it's very possible you're opening yourself up to a three-bet, or people with better hands will still be calling?

This hand, I am just adamently opposed to raising the turn. Let's see the river as cheaply as possible and hopefully see a cheap showdown the times we don't make a flush. If we hit the flush, we still might be able to get multiple bets out of it...

My apologies if some of what I've just said felt redundant by the time ya finished reading.


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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: ZeeJustin]
      #496243 - 01/26/04 02:31 PM

Quote:

I feel like I could have played this hand better.





Justin, I want to hear how you think you could have played it better.


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naphand
addict


Reged: 06/16/03
Posts: 550
Loc: Bournemouth, UK
Re: Not sure how I should have played this hand [Re: Schneids]
      #496246 - 01/26/04 02:33 PM

I think if CO will 3-bet your raise on the Turn, then you are not in the position of calling only one bet to see the River, as he will raise behind you if you just call. If he plans to raise the Turn, you will be paying 2 bets anyway plus the River. Your raise MAY get re-raised, and you call the River with a missed draw (costing you 4 bets altogether, versus 3 by just getting raised when you call the Turn). So in the scenario you discuss, it's only 1 BB.

I still don't think QQ is likely, as SB has bet out with the Q flop, and is presumably not scared of AQ/KQ, which is the most obvious hand he may see from the raise, and I would bet this flop (with QQ) hoping to be against KK, AA or AQ. Of course, he may choose to raise the Turn as you say.

If you raise the Turn, and CO is holding AK or AJ, and would have raised, he may be put off fearing slow-played QQ, AA or AQ, and just call. He MAY raise TP, but I think in most cases he raises TP if you call, but just calls if you raise so I think the re-raise is not such a major threat. If you are right and he re-raises, you are paying 3 bets instead of 2 (or 3 instead of 4 if SB caps/3-bets). And, for all the times he is playing JJ or less, he either calls 2 bets for his tiny draw, or if he folds you pick up the bet from SB. I would rather have the 2 bets and go HU against the SB, who I figure to have beat if he just calls the Turn raise, even without the flush.

I am not advocating calling the 3-bet on the Turn and check/folding the River, with a decent pot you are probably going to have to call. For the times you hit your flush, you have the chance to CR the River, and pick up an extra BB from both players, should you be re-raised by CO.

Also, what happens when you hit your flush and the flush card pairs the board? If you have not tested your opponents hands, you still do not know if you are up against a set that has filled up, or just PP.

Your points are well taken, and I think illustrate well the considerations for this play. If I had paired a K on the board for TP, and was possibly against AA, then I think the points you raised make a strong case for just calling the Turn, but Ace TP/nut-flush draw is too good for me to just call this Turn.


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