sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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I was discussing how there really aren't that many times when it's best to raise to clean up outs with Michael Davis, and this hand came up at a live pink chip game
I was extremely bored and the table was extremely tight (like 8 2p2ers), so I was screwing around, straddling, and generally just trying to replace sfer as the retarded LAG
EP, a too loose but decent playing kid, open limps, Johnny Boom Boom raises in the hijack, Rusted Corpse calls I believe, I call with 5 2 on the button, a bitter old woman who's too loose and too weak, but extremely arrogant (BOWWTLATWBEA), and posts on 2+2 occasionally which I didn't realize at the time, semi-coldcalls, and a I think Luv2DriveTT called also. so it's 6 to the flop for 12 SB
Flop: J 42
blidns checks, decent kid bets out, JBB raises, Rusted Corpse folds, I insta-call, BOWWTLATWBEA says something like "I gotta see the turn, the pot's just so big," and everyone else folds but the decent kid. so it's 4 of us to the turn for 10 BB
Turn: 3 no heart
checked to JBB who bets, I raise, other two fold, JBB 3-bets
now I say something stupid and annoying like "gimme a 6!"
River: 5
JBB checks, I bet, JBB calls and MHIG
angry woman whined that she would've made her straight on the river with the A
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Clarkmeister
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 4247
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yay!
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private joker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 1943
Loc: Los Angeles
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How can you put the old bag on specifically A3 to say your turn raise is cleaning up your 2-pair outs? Nobody else has a deuce, and an A or 6 is likely to give you the best hand regardless of other holdings.
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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she's awful enough to call the flop with like A9o or something. TT plays tight too so he could possibly have something like A4 or A3 + bd frush
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elindauer
enthusiast
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 292
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Quote:
How can you put the old bag on specifically A3 to say your turn raise is cleaning up your 2-pair outs?
The turn was a 3. If the raise folds the remaining aces it makes a 5 good.
Good luck.
Eric
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gaming_mouse
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 2480
Loc: my hero is sfer
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sfer 3-bets PF. for value.
everything else looks good.
gm
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Chris Daddy Cool
addict
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 401
Loc: USA
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expertly played from start to finish.
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PokerBob
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 238
Loc: St. Paul
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I'm from MN so I'm obviously an idiot, but what's the value of a pink chip?
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rmarotti
newbie
Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 36
Loc: Hibernating
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$2.50
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colgin
enthusiast
Reged: 06/17/03
Posts: 311
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Well, I will go on record saying I hate the pre-flop call but whatever. . . it sounds like you were trying to have some fun.
The rest of the hand looks perfect to me. Nicely done.
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colgin
enthusiast
Reged: 06/17/03
Posts: 311
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Quote:
How can you put the old bag . . .
sthief didn't refer to her this way and, since she is a fellow 2+2er who frequents these boards, I think she shouldn't be referred to this way.
Besides, I think it is hysterical what is considered "old" on these boards. I guess I am "old" then too although my colleagues here that know me don't seem to think that, at least to my knowledge (unless they talk smack behind my back, which is quite possible  ).
Sorry, I don't mean to be the polite police today but I think we should be considerate of our fellow posters here.
All the best.
Colgin
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DMBFan23
addict
Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 417
Loc: I don't want a large Farva
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Quote:
Well, I will go on record saying I hate the pre-flop call but whatever. . . it sounds like you were trying to have some fun.
The rest of the hand looks perfect to me. Nicely done.
yeah this summed it up for me. if you're gonna coldcall preflop to put a vicious beat on your friend, then hey who am I to argue. but this was beautiful postflop
Edited by DMBFan23 (05/12/05 09:37 AM)
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BottlesOf
old hand
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 863
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I had JJ (overpair), there was no J on the board.
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Luke
enthusiast
Reged: 04/29/03
Posts: 361
Loc: USA
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A pink chip is $2.50 and it used to be that the "Pink Chip Game" took place at the Tropicana in Atlantic City. The game was $7.50/$15 and used only pink chips. I think Taj might run it now, but I'm not sure...
Luke
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CallMeIshmael
old hand
Reged: 12/30/04
Posts: 1097
Loc: RIP Mitch Hedberg
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Quote:
Quote:
How can you put the old bag . . .
sthief didn't refer to her this way
No... But, he did call her:
Quote:
a bitter old woman who's too loose and too weak, but extremely arrogant
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colgin
enthusiast
Reged: 06/17/03
Posts: 311
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I didn't mean to leave the implication that I condone that either although it seems not quite as bad in that there was at least a description of playing style in there.
My point being that while people can obviously say whatever they want to, it might be nice to consider the feelings of those who you have some reason to believe might read your post before making derogatory remarks about that person.
While I tend to disfavor derogatory remarks about people on these boards as a general matter, if you are talking about some random person who is unlikely to ever read it (or be able to identify themselves if they happen to do so), e.g., "there was this drooling, senile old fart in Seat 2 at the Taj last week", then there is probably not much harm in doing so.
Anyway, I am done with my rant. 
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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don't worry. she's far too arrogant to ever read the "Small Stakes" forum, so I know she won't read this.
and I don't know how old she was. she was sitting to my left the whole time
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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I was pretty sure there was some paint on the board
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CallMeIshmael
old hand
Reged: 12/30/04
Posts: 1097
Loc: RIP Mitch Hedberg
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Quote:
bitter old woman who's too loose and too weak, but extremely arrogant (BOWWTLATWBEA)
AOTD.
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BottlesOf
old hand
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 863
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Maybe a T. I had the overpiar though I know that.
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TheHip41
old hand
Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 856
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Quote:
EP, a too loose but decent playing kid, open limps, Johnny Boom Boom raises in the hijack, Rusted Corpse calls I believe, I call with 52 on the button, a bitter old woman who's too loose and too weak, but extremely arrogant (BOWWTLATWBEA), and posts on 2+2 occasionally which I didn't realize at the time, semi-coldcalls, and a I think Luv2DriveTT called also.
That's some good table selection there thief 
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MaxPower
veteran
Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 1323
Loc: The Land of Chocolate
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Calling a women old is certainly bad maners but it is not nearly as bad as asking her if she has been eating a lot of cookies because she smells like cookies.
Hopefully by the time you are 36, you will have learned a thing or two.
Now explain the 42s UTG limp and all the cold-calling.
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PokerBob
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 238
Loc: St. Paul
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Quote:
(BOWWTLATWBEA)
Please translate.
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Absolute
newbie
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 30
Loc: Atlanta Georgia
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Quote:
Quote:
(BOWWTLATWBEA)
Please translate.
bitter old woman who's too loose and too weak, but extremely arrogant
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CallMeIshmael
old hand
Reged: 12/30/04
Posts: 1097
Loc: RIP Mitch Hedberg
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Quote:
Quote:
(BOWWTLATWBEA)
Please translate.
Acronym of the day.
And its not close.
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GreywolfNYC
enthusiast
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 290
Loc: New York, NY
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That "bitter old woman" you refer to is in her 30's, which could only be "old" to the barely post-pubescent, and is probably twice the poker player than anyone else who was at that table. I wasn't there, of course, but I think thats a pretty good bet.
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Luv2DriveTT
stranger
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 3
Loc: USA
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Quote:
she's awful enough to call the flop with like A9o or something. TT plays tight too so he could possibly have something like A4 or A3 + bd frush
I gotta qualify two things to set the record straight
1) She is my age. I'm not old (yet). Therefore she is not an old bag (yet). And yes, she is a long time poster here (occasionally) and regular reader of 2+2. I can't wait till she reads this thread and goes ballistic on my ass. 
2) Lets discuss position for a minute so you can see how I played tighter in this game than I have in ages. To my right was as follows, with a donktastic rating next to each player (the higher the number the bigger the donk.
Max Power: 2
JBB: 4
bdk3clash: 5
Sthief: 9 (much laggier than Sfer I should add)
NJChick: NO COMMENT (She can kick my ass)
Rusted Corpse: 4
DRIVETT (me): 1
Yep.... I was the total nit. Can you blame me? Look what I had to follow! I was folding left and right because the hands were 3-bet before they got to me quite often.
Actually I was laughing about Slogger (he was sitting 2 downn to my left). Normally in this game or in the weekly $3/$6 game he is a bit of a LAG, but he was forced to play the tightest I've ever seen him play because the pre-flop aggression was too great. I think in the entire night there was like 5 hands that wasn't raised pre flop, and of those that were at least 25% were probably 3 bet.
Lets just say it was an awesome night.... very nice! Whoever thinks playing with other 2+2'ers can't be profitable is wrong!
TT
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Luv2DriveTT
stranger
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 3
Loc: USA
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Quote:
Calling a women old is certainly bad manners but it is not nearly as bad as asking her if she has been eating a lot of cookies because she smells like cookies.
Hopefully by the time you are 36, you will have learned a thing or two.
Hey.... I resemble the second remark, and I said the first remark (woops!). Its all good... nothing a $5 tip for 2 Chips Ahoys couldn't fix, Becky (the waitress) was calling me uncle TT and asking for a ride again before the evening was over 
TT
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Derek in NYC
member
Reged: 06/30/04
Posts: 130
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OK, so I've never played live with you that I can recall until last night, but this hand was one of them that had me asking Steven today, "Who the hell is that Josh character?"
This situation feels too marginal and ambiguous to raise 4th street to clean up outs. I understand your basic thinking. You're surely behind right now with bottom pair, so you need a 6, 5, 2 or ace to win. 6, 2, and ace are pretty clean for you and likely give you a winner. (Maybe you chop with an ace) 5 is the real problem, and so you want 6s and Aces out. So you raise, and instead of laying 12:1 by calling, you change the odds to 6.5:1 so they cant draw to their gutshot. Im with you so far.
The problem I have is who exactly do you think has stuck around on this board with a six or an ace? Yes, there are definitely hands you can come up with, like maybe the open limper was coming in with A2s, or maybe the woman behind you is sticking around with A4s or AQ or something... but frankly I look at this board and the prior action and I have a hard time figuring out with anything resembling certainty that there is an ace or six out there.
Additionally, for every time that you raise this turn, JBB may well smack you back with a hand like AJ which totally consistent with his preflop and flop action.
Bottom line: raising to clean up outs can make sense, but I think you need to be more sure that you actually are forcing out hands you can identify as being reasonably likely to be out there from the preflop and flop action. Where the situation is as ambiguous as here, I prefer to draw cheaply, try to hit my OESD, trips or two pair, and just hope that my outs to the two-pair are clean.
Of course, I lose the hand this way.
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Derek in NYC
member
Reged: 06/30/04
Posts: 130
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I thought about it some more, and came up with this. On second thought I guess maybe it is closer than I thought.
If you call, you get 11:1 on your money with about 8 pretty decent outs. (4 sixes, 2 twos, 4 aces worth 33% because of the chop risk, and 3 fives worth 25% because of the counterfeit risk). To make the call with 8 outs, you needed only 5:1, so you get a nice overlay by calling. Your overlay is better than 2:1 in fact, especially if you consider that the woman and open limper may also call.
Now lets say you raise it up. Now you have 13 clean outs, all of which give you a winner with no chop. (4 aces, 2 twos, 4 sixes, and 3 fives). 13 outs with 1 card to come is around 2.5:1. The pot is laying you 11:2 odds, or 5.5:1 immediately, or 6.5:1 if you assume the woman folds and openlimper folds, and JBB completes.
Does it improve your odds to raise? Well, in scenario A you're getting a 2.2x overlay (11:1 pot odds compared to 5:1 odds to make the hand), but in scenario B, you're getting a 2.6x overlay (6.5:1 pot odds vs. 2.5:1 odds to complete).
But when JBB reraises it causes problems. Now the pot is paying you 16:3 assuming the woman and openlimper both fold, but JBB reraises and you call. Now instead of the 6.5:1 odds we were just talking about, you only get about 5:1 odds, where the chance of completing is 2.5:1. So the overlay is around 2x.
Net net, I think it makes a big difference whether you think JBB will reraise you or just call. If you think he will re-raise you, I think its pretty marginal (which is the point I was trying to make in my original post when I speculated JBB might have AJ). If you think he just smooth calls, then yeah, I can see the play.
Gaming Mouse or somebody needs to check my math. I get this stuff wrong all the time.
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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Quote:
Calling a women old is certainly bad maners but it is not nearly as bad as asking her if she has been eating a lot of cookies because she smells like cookies.
Hopefully by the time you are 36, you will have learned a thing or two.
Now explain the 42s UTG limp and all the cold-calling.
ok here i go a little drunk:
1. first i am bitter for the hand where she cold called 3 bets with 75s, called 4 bets on the flop with 3 outs (though she did have a flush draw and couldn't know that i had a bigger one), i whiffed on a turn check raise with top pair + nut flush draw, she rivered two pair, didn't raise despite the fact that I checked the turn, I excitedly accounced "nuts" with my top pair, assuming she couldn't be that bad as to not raise with a hand that beats one pair, and then she proceeded to give me the longest slowroll in the hisotry of poker
2. i think shes a two-year old for whining to me about accidentally touching her cards that the dealer would deal to me
3. i am generally an extremely polite person at the table and in general. kids have a reputation for being douches and i try to dispell that reputation. anyone who has played with me serious knows that. i never curse where someone i dont know could hear it, i never complain about losing a hand, i never table coach, i say nice hand when i dont mean it, and i try to be as friendly as possible
4. she was verbally rooting against me at the table. granted i did admit to checkraising a hand purely to get her to fold so she wouldnt win, but that was after i was a little angry about her verbally putting me on a hand while not involved in the hand
5. she was easily the worst human being i have ever met in my entire life.
6. about the old comment, first of all im a kid and everyone is old to me. second of all, i didnt see her, as she was to my left, but the way she acted, i had to imagine she was at least 60 to be that bitter.
7. i did not say TT is too tight, but "TT is tight, too" but now im just rambling
8. any hand that can possibly make a STEEL WHEEL is worth playing for any amount of bets preflop. those hands were 3/4 for me. 2 pair against chris, backdoor frush vs max power, and backdoor frush against rusted corpse. i missed a wheel+flush draw against derek in nyc after check raising a dry side pot headsup because i was so positive id hit it
9. maybe i was being annoying at the table, and i apologize for that, but you guys were so quiet i had to try to loosen you up
22. she constantly kept saying "I KNEW HE HAD THAT" ie when i 3-bet and called her cold cap, and check-called the flop, check-check turn, i bet river AND SHE KNEW I HAD A FLUSH DRAW!!!!!!!!! it doesnt get more irritating than someone that does that. id only play every hand like that. what an expert
23. when someone beat me, shed say something like "thats way good" or "that beats A high" when in fact shes retarded. another hand i folded the best hand and winner on the turn and someone asked what i had and she claimed "oh he was in 3rd the whole way." this all because she saw me almost fold a few times, and make weak calls with JJ, JJ, QQ, KK in the first 30 mins and probably assume i had 6 high
37. apparently she has gotten into it with Evan and Brad (bdk3clash) in the past, who are two of the nicest people i know. maybe she just needs a different species to interrelate with
at least im 21 and have somewhat of an excuse for acting immaturely. she just acted like a bitter old hag
i cant believe i just wasted all this time
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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how bout $4 for a slice of pizza?
i didnt like that place much, but the owner seemed like a really nice guy
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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Sthief: 9 (much laggier than Sfer I should add)
i was playing like a bagina postflop though. i was experimenting with things. having 0 folding equity sucks though, but it bought me a lot of free cards from people thinking i was dumb enough to bluff
and i dont think you are a nit. i said you play tight.
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KDawgCometh
old hand
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 1184
Loc: spewin chips
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
(BOWWTLATWBEA)
Please translate.
bitter old woman who's too loose and too weak, but extremely arrogant
shut up 
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scotty34
addict
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 686
Loc: Vancouver BC
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Funny, I just saw this thread about 10 mins before reading this post.
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sfer
old hand
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 806
Loc: New York
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Quote:
3. i am generally an extremely polite person at the table and in general. kids have a reputation for being douches and i try to dispell that reputation. anyone who has played with me serious knows that. i never curse where someone i dont know could hear it, i never complain about losing a hand, i never table coach, i say nice hand when i dont mean it, and i try to be as friendly as possible
I can vouch for this. Josh does not have a trace of meanness at the table.
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MaxPower
veteran
Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 1323
Loc: The Land of Chocolate
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Quote:
Quote:
3. i am generally an extremely polite person at the table and in general. kids have a reputation for being douches and i try to dispell that reputation. anyone who has played with me serious knows that. i never curse where someone i dont know could hear it, i never complain about losing a hand, i never table coach, i say nice hand when i dont mean it, and i try to be as friendly as possible
I can vouch for this. Josh does not have a trace of meanness at the table.
I agree completely from the 2 times I've played with him. The other night he always had a smile on his face and was polite while he was cold-calling, sucking out, and generally donking around
I just think a little more tact is called for when posting on 2+2. This game which TT is trying to establish has a very small player base right now, but has a good chance of becoming popular. Your post will not make his job any easier.
I like Josh. He reminds me of a young me, before the weight of the world crushed my spirit. I can't wait till him comes back to 2+2 after his 30 day hiatus 
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sfer
old hand
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 806
Loc: New York
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Quote:
I was extremely bored and the table was extremely tight (like 8 2p2ers), so I was screwing around, straddling, and generally just trying to replace sfer as the retarded LAG
You should of stayed 2 more days and played with CDC at Commerce. Then I wouldn't be your barometer anymore.
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GreywolfNYC
enthusiast
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 290
Loc: New York, NY
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Quote:
I just think a little more tact is called for when posting on 2+2. This game which TT is trying to establish has a very small player base right now, but has a good chance of becoming popular. Your post will not make his job any easier.
Max, I only met you once, very briefly, at the Taj. You seem like a really nice guy and I have heard nothing but good things about you. But I will say this. After this bit of mean-spirited childishness from your friend, you guys better get used to playing amongst yourselves. Word of incidents like this does get around, and the player referred to as a "bitter old woman" is in fact a lovely person who is held in very high esteem as a player in the NYC poker scene. A lot of people will not be amused by this.
As far as the venue for this game goes, the owners have done a nice job of outfitting the place but there is no game selection. I'll be amazed if they are still open 6 months from now. Enjoy it while it lasts.
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sfer
old hand
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 806
Loc: New York
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Quote:
After this bit of mean-spirited childishness from your friend, you guys better get used to playing amongst yourselves. Word of incidents like this does get around, and the player referred to as a "bitter old woman" is in fact a lovely person who is held in very high esteem as a player in the NYC poker scene. A lot of people will not be amused by this.
Right. The clubs are pretty strict about keeping the douchebag quotient low right now.
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VBM
stranger
Reged: 02/17/05
Posts: 0
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Quote:
she has gotten into it with Evan and Brad (bdk3clash) ...who are two of the nicest people i know.
Evan? really? he seemed facetious & arrogant at some 2+2 tables i've played w/ him... Though, i will say that his posts are quite articulate & mostly seem well-meaning.
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Entity
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 3786
Loc: joining the U.S.S smallstakes
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Quote:
Quote:
she has gotten into it with Evan and Brad (bdk3clash) ...who are two of the nicest people i know.
Evan? really? he seemed facetious & arrogant at some 2+2 tables i've played w/ him... Though, i will say that his posts are quite articulate & mostly seem well-meaning.
Evan is probably the nicest 2+2 poster I know. Also, I seriously doubt he comes off as more arrogant at 2+2 tables than I do.
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slogger
member
Reged: 04/14/03
Posts: 168
Loc: NYC
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I have to vouch for sthief on this one.
GreyW, I am coming at this from the relatively objective perpesctive of an occasional player on the "NY poker scene." Having played with this woman now twice this week, in two different rooms (and a few times in the past), I have to agree with sthief's sentiments (except for the "old" part - I'd guess she's no more than 35).
In my admittedly limited experience (amounting to about 6 hours of table time), this woman's demeanor and interaction with other players rubs me the wrong way. She occasionally offers a friendly word or two, but it ususally seems disingenious, if not sarcastic. And the frequent passive-aggressive comments during and after hands become obnoxious fairly quickly.
I know all players occasionally mutter about a loose call or bad beat, but it seems that she either has a glare or subtly snide comment after almost every hand. And while I don't begrudge anyone the right to be talkative at the table (and often enjoy a little table talk), her contributions tend to come off as arrogant and a bit mean-spirited.
Again, this may be a misperception based on insufficient experience (and I'm certainly open to being proven wrong), but aside from the slightly antagonistic tone of sthief's complaints, I think they're spot on.
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sfer
old hand
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 806
Loc: New York
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Quote:
Quote:
she has gotten into it with Evan and Brad (bdk3clash) ...who are two of the nicest people i know.
Evan? really? he seemed facetious & arrogant at some 2+2 tables i've played w/ him... Though, i will say that his posts are quite articulate & mostly seem well-meaning.
Pssst. EvanMidget isn't actually Evan.
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VBM
stranger
Reged: 02/17/05
Posts: 0
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
she has gotten into it with Evan and Brad (bdk3clash) ...who are two of the nicest people i know.
Evan? really? he seemed facetious & arrogant at some 2+2 tables i've played w/ him... Though, i will say that his posts are quite articulate & mostly seem well-meaning.
Evan is probably the nicest 2+2 poster I know. Also, I seriously doubt he comes off as more arrogant at 2+2 tables than I do.
i'll say this:
1. we've only played on the same table maybe a handful of times.
2. i don't know him at all personally.
3. it may have just been misconstrued good-natured ribbing. And, given that everyone on the table was 2+2, maybe the default assumption was to take everything in jest.
If that's the case, then I definitely took too much umbrage with the "shyeah. great flop cold-call there, genius" and "f'in stupid"-type running commentary...
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PokerBob
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 238
Loc: St. Paul
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Quote:
Then I wouldn't be your barometer anymore.
It's pronounced ther-ma-muh-ter .
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BottlesOf
old hand
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 863
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You were not there, and frankly you have no idea what you are talking about.
There is NO WAY, this "incident" will impact Sattelite's ability to spread whatever game they want. If the pink game suffers at all in the short run, it will be because people were put off by NJChick's behavior which was unbecoming of a 2+2er. Berating/holding grudges/slow rolling, commenting on other people's hands/play--these are not things that contribute to a pleasant playing atmosphere.
Josh was mean in his comments here, and for that he has apologized (I think). MaxPower is a very nice guy and has done nothing to deserve any ciritcism as far as I can tell, so why you bring him up, I have no idea. I think NJChick should also apologize, or at the very least, realize that some of the things she does at the table are not appreciated and maybe cease doing them.
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CallMeIshmael
old hand
Reged: 12/30/04
Posts: 1097
Loc: RIP Mitch Hedberg
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Quote:
It's pronounced ther-ma-muh-ter .
Your play, brilliant, in my opinion.
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Derek in NYC
member
Reged: 06/30/04
Posts: 130
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By the way JBB, for some reason I was surprised to learn that you are not black. Something about the name and the avatars, I guess.
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BottlesOf
old hand
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 863
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POTD
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GreywolfNYC
enthusiast
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 290
Loc: New York, NY
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Quote:
You were not there, and frankly you have no idea what you are talking about.
There is NO WAY, this "incident" will impact Sattelite's ability to spread whatever game they want. If the pink game suffers at all in the short run, it will be because people were put off by NJChick's behavior which was unbecoming of a 2+2er. Berating/holding grudges/slow rolling, commenting on other people's hands/play--these are not things that contribute to a pleasant playing atmosphere.
Josh was mean in his comments here, and for that he has apologized (I think). MaxPower is a very nice guy and has done nothing to deserve any ciritcism as far as I can tell, so why you bring him up, I have no idea. I think NJChick should also apologize, or at the very least, realize that some of the things she does at the table are not appreciated and maybe cease doing them.
No, I was not there. I said that in my original reply. You, however, did not comprehend anything that I said here.
First of all, my prediction that the club will not succeed was not based on what happened at your game the other night. My prediction is based on game selection, period. The owners are friendly, decent guys and I actually hope they make it, but I doubt they will.
As for your thinking that I was criticizing Max Power, well, I wasn't. You need to reread what I said to him and I think that should be clear. I have no issue or axe to grind with Max. I only met the man once and he seemed to be a gentleman, unlike many who post here.
If you think NJChick owes anyone an apology I suggest you take that up with her in private. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.
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sfer
old hand
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 806
Loc: New York
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Quote:
Quote:
You were not there, and frankly you have no idea what you are talking about.
There is NO WAY, this "incident" will impact Sattelite's ability to spread whatever game they want. If the pink game suffers at all in the short run, it will be because people were put off by NJChick's behavior which was unbecoming of a 2+2er. Berating/holding grudges/slow rolling, commenting on other people's hands/play--these are not things that contribute to a pleasant playing atmosphere.
Josh was mean in his comments here, and for that he has apologized (I think). MaxPower is a very nice guy and has done nothing to deserve any ciritcism as far as I can tell, so why you bring him up, I have no idea. I think NJChick should also apologize, or at the very least, realize that some of the things she does at the table are not appreciated and maybe cease doing them.
No, I was not there. I said that in my original reply. You, however, did not comprehend anything that I said here.
First of all, my prediction that the club will not succeed was not based on what happened at your game the other night. My prediction is based on game selection, period. The owners are friendly, decent guys and I actually hope they make it, but I doubt they will.
As for your thinking that I was criticizing Max Power, well, I wasn't. You need to reread what I said to him and I think that should be clear. I have no issue or axe to grind with Max. I only met the man once and he seemed to be a gentleman, unlike many who post here.
If you think NJChick owes anyone an apology I suggest you take that up with her in private. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.
I wasn't at the table, so I'm gong to insert myself. You said Josh acted childish in his post. I don't dispute that. However, he gave very clear reasons why, and no one has in any way suggested that the player in question did not act like a steaming turd at the table. I don't know if she did, but that doesn't appear to be a contention. Your original post:
Quote:
Max, I only met you once, very briefly, at the Taj. You seem like a really nice guy and I have heard nothing but good things about you. But I will say this. After this bit of mean-spirited childishness from your friend, you guys better get used to playing amongst yourselves. Word of incidents like this does get around, and the player referred to as a "bitter old woman" is in fact a lovely person who is held in very high esteem as a player in the NYC poker scene. A lot of people will not be amused by this.
As far as the venue for this game goes, the owners have done a nice job of outfitting the place but there is no game selection. I'll be amazed if they are still open 6 months from now. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Seems to suggest that the players in question (Josh/JBB/Shaun/whoever else was there) are somehow obnoxious twits. I think you should reevaluate that. What seems clear to me is that no one is questioning their demeanor at the table, but rather on this forum. On the other hand, everyone is either taking issue with her table presence, and even you have not commented on it. To me, being an ass on this forum, while annoying, is meaningless compared being an ass while playing live.
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BottlesOf
old hand
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 863
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I read your post rather quickly, I may have misread parts, but you did mention Max and "his" friends, when he had nothing to do with anything.
As for thinking NJChick owes an apology, that's really up to her. I don't know that she necessarily "owes" one. I know she acted shitty at the game, but probably doesn't think she did. I have no grudge/axe to grind with anyone, so for me the matter is dead.
Would she be incredulous at the thought of apologizing? Do Josh's mean comments here excuse her poor behavior at the game?
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GreywolfNYC
enthusiast
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 290
Loc: New York, NY
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Quote:
I read your post rather quickly, I may have misread parts, but you did mention Max and "his" friends, when he had nothing to do with anything.
NO. You're still not getting it. I said "mean-spirited childishness from your friend. I was referring only to the language that was used in the original post. Once and for all, it has nothing to do with Max.
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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if something is goign to hurt the games, it's her table coaching, berating, talking strategy, vocally putting people on hands while not involved, and arrogance. people go to have a good time, not to hear a know-it-all tell him how "oh this game means nothing to me. I play 20/40 at [name club that shall not be named]. [club that shall not be named] IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS PLACE. I LOVE [club that shall not be named]. I GO TO [club that shall not be named] ON MONDAYS. YOU SHOULD COME PLAY OMAHA AT [club that shall not be named] ON MONDAYS. THAT'S WHERE I PLAY" I am in large part responsible for what happened, and I apologize that others have now gotten involved, but it seems like I'm not the only person who has a problem with her.
I'd just like this to end now. there's no reason for it to keep carrying on. I apologize to everyone who has gotten involved because I didn't mean to cause something like this. I was just disgusted by her antics at the table. she was the typical table coach that no one can stand, and I just expect a little more from people who post here.
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CallMeIshmael
old hand
Reged: 12/30/04
Posts: 1097
Loc: RIP Mitch Hedberg
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Bangor?
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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Quote:
Quote:
I read your post rather quickly, I may have misread parts, but you did mention Max and "his" friends, when he had nothing to do with anything.
NO. You're still not getting it. I said "mean-spirited childishness from your friend. I was referring only to the language that was used in the original post. Once and for all, it has nothing to do with Max.
yes, and I apologize for the post. I just have a problem controlling my hatred for bad people
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BottlesOf
old hand
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 863
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Sorry, for making you say that a few times. I a little slow. I do think SFer's reply to your post however, is dead on.
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MaxPower
veteran
Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 1323
Loc: The Land of Chocolate
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Quote:
Quote:
I read your post rather quickly, I may have misread parts, but you did mention Max and "his" friends, when he had nothing to do with anything.
NO. You're still not getting it. I said "mean-spirited childishness from your friend. I was referring only to the language that was used in the original post. Once and for all, it has nothing to do with Max.
Hey man, I am above reproach 
But seriously, it took me a couple of readings of your post to realize you weren't criticizing me.
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private joker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 1943
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote:
To me, being an ass on this forum, while annoying, is meaningless compared being an ass while playing live.
This is the essence of the issue. We have yet to hear dashing Greywolf come chivalrously swooping to her defense on this point.
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dtbog
stranger
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 19
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Quote:
old bag
nh.
This phrase reminds me of the "Marble Rye" episode of Seinfeld every time I hear it.. =)
-dB
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GreywolfNYC
enthusiast
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 290
Loc: New York, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
To me, being an ass on this forum, while annoying, is meaningless compared being an ass while playing live.
This is the essence of the issue. We have yet to hear dashing Greywolf come chivalrously swooping to her defense on this point.
Here's the "dashing Greywolf's" answer. I have played with the person you called an "old bag" on several occasions. I have had many more occasions to observe her while she is playing because we play different games at the same club. Her behavior at the table is always top-shelf. Even when she has taken some bad beats. By the way, I have also played with her at a table with other 2+2ers and she was by far the best of the lot and the only player who I thought could give me a run for my money. Also, someone who was at that table the evening this all took place has told me that he saw nothing wrong with her behavior.
I would tend to believe him, and her, sooner than I would you. You use that kind of term to describe another 2+2er in a public thread and you have lost any shred of credibility that you might have had.
You are dismissed.
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Derek in NYC
member
Reged: 06/30/04
Posts: 130
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I was there. This is a stupid thread. Everybody keep your panties on. Do not forget to read my on-topic contribution to the hand analysis. That is all.
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sfer
old hand
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 806
Loc: New York
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To me, being an ass on this forum, while annoying, is meaningless compared being an ass while playing live.
This is the essence of the issue. We have yet to hear dashing Greywolf come chivalrously swooping to her defense on this point.
Here's the "dashing Greywolf's" answer. I have played with the person you called an "old bag" on several occasions. I have had many more occasions to observe her while she is playing because we play different games at the same club. Her behavior at the table is always top-shelf. Even when she has taken some bad beats. By the way, I have also played with her at a table with other 2+2ers and she was by far the best of the lot and the only player who I thought could give me a run for my money. Also, someone who was at that table the evening this all took place has told me that he saw nothing wrong with her behavior.
I would tend to believe him, and her, sooner than I would you. You use that kind of term to describe another 2+2er in a public thread and you have lost any shred of credibility that you might have had.
You are dismissed.
How she has acted at other times is irrelevent. This is a specific instance with several people who have stated otherwise. I have played with her as well and I've seen both good and bad behavior, and I don't have an opinion as to her demeanor Wed except that both Chris and Josh agree and I have been told that another player I know well left because he found her intolerable.
Beyond that, I think that your suggestion in your original email that they--Chris, Josh, etc--will be forced to play only with each other (presumably because their table "antics," which don't exist, will get them banned from NY clubs) is pretty silly, especially since I doubt you've met any of them.
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MaxPower
veteran
Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 1323
Loc: The Land of Chocolate
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Her behavior was perfectly normal and unremarkable for a poker game. She just rubbed a couple of people the wrong way - that's it.
Quite honestly, if she normally plays limit holdem the way she played that night, her game can use some work. Of course, I would say the same thing about Josh if I hadn't played with him before and known that he was just screwing around.
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GreywolfNYC
enthusiast
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 290
Loc: New York, NY
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Quote:
Beyond that, I think that your suggestion in your original email that they--Chris, Josh, etc--will be forced to play only with each other (presumably because their table "antics," which don't exist, will get them banned from NY clubs) is pretty silly, especially since I doubt you've met any of them.
Dave,
I didn't exactly mean to suggest that they would be banned from any of the clubs, but all this drama doesn't really help the pink chip game get off the ground.
You're right, apart from TT I haven't met any of them, except Colgin and, briefly, Max. They are both gentlemen. But I have heard the other side of the story and I think I'll just continue to play where I currently do.
That's enough from me in this thread. Let's all put it to rest, shall we?
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sthief09
veteran
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 1245
Loc: duffman is thrusting in the di...
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To me, being an ass on this forum, while annoying, is meaningless compared being an ass while playing live.
This is the essence of the issue. We have yet to hear dashing Greywolf come chivalrously swooping to her defense on this point.
Here's the "dashing Greywolf's" answer. I have played with the person you called an "old bag" on several occasions. I have had many more occasions to observe her while she is playing because we play different games at the same club. Her behavior at the table is always top-shelf. Even when she has taken some bad beats. By the way, I have also played with her at a table with other 2+2ers and she was by far the best of the lot and the only player who I thought could give me a run for my money. Also, someone who was at that table the evening this all took place has told me that he saw nothing wrong with her behavior.
I would tend to believe him, and her, sooner than I would you. You use that kind of term to describe another 2+2er in a public thread and you have lost any shred of credibility that you might have had.
You are dismissed.
I've already apologized to you about you having to get involved in this, but you're ridiciulously biased towards her. anyone who thinks she plays well or has anything above a mediocre understanding for the game has to be. even if she was screwing around or trying to beat me by routinely by calling 3 cold with 75s and 2 cold with K3s, she was still making huge mistakes like not 3-betting late position raises with 88, not raising for value, ie not raising 2 pair after the turn got checked through, not betting for value, etc. it's pretty obvious that she's break-even at best in most middle limit hold'em games. now maybe you're referring to Omaha, which is a simpler game that suits her better I'm sure. if you are, than sorry for this.
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fryKing
newbie
Reged: 10/22/03
Posts: 28
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I don't know why I'm involving myself in this but since everyone else who was there has, I feel compelled.
I don't think she slow rolled you on purpose, I think she's not in on the joke where you turn your probably-best decent hand over and say "The Nuts". I think she was rereading the board to make sure that you didn't actually have the nuts.
As for the rest of it, I have no comments other than I enjoyed meeting stheif for the first time and had fun playing with him.
Oh and Let's Go Mets, bail Pedro out for a change instead of the other way around.
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B Dids
enthusiast
Reged: 02/01/04
Posts: 326
Loc: Sea-town!!
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People are making WAY too much of somebody being called "old". I'm 28 and I tend to refer to anybody older than me as OLD. If I was Josh's age, I would call somebody in their 30s old without question.
If you can't shrug off somebody ~10 years younger than you calling you old, you may want to consider some treatment to stop aging.
Beyond that, if you're playing with a bunch of people who you know post on a message board, and act like a dick to them, you shouldn't take great offense (nor should your friends/internet saviors) when they point out that you were acting like a dick.
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