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Limit Texas Hold'em >> Small Stakes Shorthanded

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Trix
veteran


Reged: 08/10/03
Posts: 1568
Loc: Denmark
Am I a rock ?
      #1040048 - 09/19/04 05:10 PM

Only have 2.5K hands at 5/10, but some of the PT stats should make sense by now.
It seems like Im one of the tighest players in the game, leak ?

Anyways, My Vpip is 16,40 , PFR: 12,12. VPIP from SB: 21,88.

In 1/2 6 my vpip from SB was ~39 btw. Does it make sense that there is such a big difference ?

Thx all.


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balkii
enthusiast


Reged: 05/06/03
Posts: 358
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Trix]
      #1040547 - 09/19/04 08:51 PM

wow trix i thought you were joking when you said something about that in the other thread. I guess not. I think you are definitely playing too tight, and this is coming from a rather tight player myself. my VPIP at 6max is 21.7 or so.

about the only recommendation i can give you is - start experimenting. I dont think most players on this site experiment enough. we learn how to play tight from the beginning because it keeps you out of trouble but quite a bit can be gained from getting yourself into trouble now and then. the Mason even talks about this in poker essays I.

so just try playing a couple more hands in some spots. you didnt post the numbers but one area that might be a leak is playing too tightly in blind steal/defense situations. here are my numbers:

folded SB to a steal : 89%
folded BB to a steal: 65%
att to steal: 29%

and these are too tight. I am still trying to find more hands to defend with.

but really. experiment. i started calling with stuff in the BB i would NEVER call before and you just try things out. see how it works. its fun.


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illguitar
journeyman


Reged: 09/08/04
Posts: 78
Loc: Mount PLaeasnt, MI
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: balkii]
      #1040550 - 09/19/04 08:54 PM

What do these things mean? How can I track them?

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joker122
enthusiast


Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 396
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Trix]
      #1040589 - 09/19/04 09:04 PM

I'm at 17.4/12.12 and also feel like I'm playing too tight. I don't know what hands to add though, because I struggle to stay above 17. One thing I didn't realize (which balkii pointed out) is that you can call from the BB with more hands that you'd never think about calling with in a full game such as AJo and KQo (although I'm not sure how wise KQo would be, even in 6m).

If your interested, maybe we can cowrite a post with a bunch of different preflop scenarios and see what the 6m regulars have to say.


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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: joker122]
      #1040600 - 09/19/04 09:07 PM

Quote:

I'm at 17.4/12.12 and also feel like I'm playing too tight. I don't know what hands to add though, because I struggle to stay above 17. One thing I didn't realize (which balkii pointed out) is that you can call from the BB with more hands that you'd never think about calling with in a full game such as AJo and KQo (although I'm not sure how wise KQo would be, even in 6m).

If your interested, maybe we can cowrite a post with a bunch of different preflop scenarios and see what the 6m regulars have to say.




Actually, you should probably be defending in the BB in a *full* game with more hands than you think, unless the raise comes from EP and/or the raiser is a known tightie.

Even considering folding KQo to AJo in BB in the 6-max is absurd against about 95% of your opponents.


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schubes
member


Reged: 07/04/04
Posts: 128
Loc: St Paul (and its twin), MN
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: joker122]
      #1040604 - 09/19/04 09:08 PM

If you're uncertain about defending with KQo that might be the problem.

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balkii
enthusiast


Reged: 05/06/03
Posts: 358
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: illguitar]
      #1040606 - 09/19/04 09:09 PM

Quote:

What do these things mean? How can I track them?




www.pokertracker.com


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joker122
enthusiast


Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 396
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Nate tha' Great]
      #1040609 - 09/19/04 09:10 PM

I was assuming that the raise was "legitimate," as in the raise came from UTG or +1. How do you feel about hands like KJo or ATo after an EP raise? And by the way, what's your vip?

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joker122
enthusiast


Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 396
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: schubes]
      #1040631 - 09/19/04 09:16 PM

Yes, it's certainly possible. I am by no means crushing these games nor beating them for the amount I feel I should be. FWIW I've been defending with KQo close to 100% of the time because someone told me to but wasn't sure if it was correct. Thanks for clearing it up though. I've logged nearly 30k hands at 5/10 and am still trying to get a better grasp of optimal preflop play. But that's why I'm here.

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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: joker122]
      #1040660 - 09/19/04 09:28 PM

Quote:

I was assuming that the raise was "legitimate," as in the raise came from UTG or +1. How do you feel about hands like KJo or ATo after an EP raise? And by the way, what's your vip?




KJo and ATo are auto blind defenses in this game. You guys need to get over your fear of being dominated. Giving up your blinds too often is a far greater sin in this game.

The computer I have with pokertracker on it is in the shop right now so I can't say for sure about my stats. These were the numbers that I dug up from an old post of mine dated from February.

Quote:

Voluntarily put in $ 27.17%.
From the SB 38.73%.
Folded SB to steal 79.50% and
BB to steal 45.09%.
Attempt to steal 31.82%,
WInning % when seeing flop is 43.33%.
went to showdown 41.61 and
won at showdown 51.14.
Pre-flop raise 16.09%




This snapshot was taken in the heat of my LAG phase and my game has tightened up a wee bit since then but I suspect I'm still probably around 25% VPIP. You guys need to LAG IT UP!!!!!!!!! Seriously from about 21%-26% I think there are a lot of hands that can go either way depending on your style of play but anything below 20% and you are almost certainly giving up a LOT of profit.


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Jason Strasser
journeyman


Reged: 11/20/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Durham, NC
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Trix]
      #1041076 - 09/20/04 12:10 AM

Think about your shania.

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bugstud
addict


Reged: 01/14/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Urbana, IL
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Trix]
      #1041179 - 09/20/04 01:01 AM

IIRC mine was around 18-19 or so. You can play more, but you also put a lot more pressure on your reads and postlfop play this way. For what it's worth my VPIP was substantially higher from what I could tell playing 4-6 handed on UB compared to party's 6 max school. I also had substantially better reads and only 1-2 tables of intensive play going.

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Peter_rus
addict


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 647
Loc: Moscow
defending BB [Re: Trix]
      #1041665 - 09/20/04 07:29 AM

I'm -0.12 on BB after last 41K when i changed strategy a bit in defending when it's multiway to reduce number of defends and take my number less than my -0.14 that was earlier. Folded BB to steal - 54.6%. I defend HU with any ace, K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+, T9o, any suited Ace, King or queen and any suited connector 5+. 3-way, any 2 T+,Q8o,J8o,T9o,89o, suited A,K,Q,J any suited connector and one-gappers. 4 or more way - any suited, any 2 T+, Q8,J8,T8,97,87,76,65.

Edited by Peter_rus (09/20/04 07:53 AM)


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Schneids
old hand


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 1084
Loc: Eagan, MN
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: joker122]
      #1041795 - 09/20/04 09:06 AM

Quote:

I was assuming that the raise was "legitimate," as in the raise came from UTG or +1. How do you feel about hands like KJo or ATo after an EP raise? And by the way, what's your vip?




Clowns like me are still raising T9s and 98s in UTG+1 so you are giving up a lot by folding the hands you've mentioned, IMO.

My lifetime vpip is 23.6 and my vpip this month is 27.5. I'm taking a few days break though so hopefully when I come back my vpip will go down a few points -- hopefully around 25, since I am concerned running g00t has made me too loose.


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Marlow
newbie


Reged: 11/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Boston, MA
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Nate tha' Great]
      #1041863 - 09/20/04 09:49 AM

Nate,

I have a question about one of your stats. Is winning 51% of your showdowns normal? I had assumed that it should be a bit higher than this. Perhaps it has changed since you grew out of your LAG phase... lol.

Marlow


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Trix
veteran


Reged: 08/10/03
Posts: 1568
Loc: Denmark
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: balkii]
      #1042317 - 09/20/04 12:20 PM

Quote:

you didnt post the numbers but one area that might be a leak is playing too tightly in blind steal/defense situations




I looked through all the hands I had in the SB and BB against a steal and it seemed like the stat would be very unprecise(sp?), due to the small sample, but something to think about for sure, since its probably the spot that plays the most different from ring I think, since it will be attacked so much more often and by weaker hands.


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Trix
veteran


Reged: 08/10/03
Posts: 1568
Loc: Denmark
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Nate tha' Great]
      #1042331 - 09/20/04 12:23 PM

what structure is the SB stat from, cuz mine would be similar in 1/2, but much lower in 5/10, perhaps Im overcompensating or just playing week due to the higher limit.

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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Schneids]
      #1043107 - 09/20/04 03:50 PM

Quote:

lifetime vpip is 23.6 and my vpip this month is 27.5.




OMG you're laggier than I am.


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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Marlow]
      #1043173 - 09/20/04 04:08 PM

Quote:

Nate,

I have a question about one of your stats. Is winning 51% of your showdowns normal? I had assumed that it should be a bit higher than this. Perhaps it has changed since you grew out of your LAG phase... lol.

Marlow




It probably is a little bit higher now, I don't know. I really need to get Pokertracker fixed. I suspect that it's 52% or 53% but my W%WSF is also lower by a percentage point or two.

That's beside the point though really because I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with having a low showdown percentage, provided that you are winning a lot of pots and winning big pots when you do. During this period I had a VP$IP of 27% but was still managing to win 43% of the flops that I saw. Think about what happens when you start playing very aggressively. You build big pots so both you and your opponents have more incentive to call down with marginal holdings. Your opponents won't trust you and will call down with any piece of the board. You'll get played back at more frequently, which is lovely for the most part, but further enhances the need to see a lot of showdowns.

These factors tend to decrease your W$SD but are a consequence of your style of play. Mind you, I'm sure that I *do* make a couple of sloppy/incorrect calldowns each session, but not enough to have more than a small (0.5% or less) effect on my W$SD.


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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Trix]
      #1043180 - 09/20/04 04:10 PM

Quote:

what structure is the SB stat from, cuz mine would be similar in 1/2, but much lower in 5/10, perhaps Im overcompensating or just playing week due to the higher limit.




These were about an even mix of 5/10 and 10/20, IIRC. FWIW I think I was completing in the SB too often in the 5/10 but I also think that you're overcompensating.


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Trix
veteran


Reged: 08/10/03
Posts: 1568
Loc: Denmark
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Nate tha' Great]
      #1043209 - 09/20/04 04:17 PM

After one limper I complete something like:

22, A7, K9, QT, JT, T9, Axs, K6s, Q8s, J8s, T8s, 76s+

With more I might make it A9 instead, but rest will be about the same I guess. Is this way off ?


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Nate tha' Great
old hand


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1120
Re: Am I a rock ? [Re: Trix]
      #1043251 - 09/20/04 04:28 PM

Quote:

After one limper I complete something like:

22, A7, K9, QT, JT, T9, Axs, K6s, Q8s, J8s, T8s, 76s+

With more I might make it A9 instead, but rest will be about the same I guess. Is this way off ?




Seems about right. You can probably add 86s, 65s, 64s and 54s but that's small beans.


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