no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

30-60 at the Commerce today. I rarely play there due to the fact that Bobby Hoff turned me into a little girl last visit, but time to get back on the horse. Anyway I have J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the SB and call a raise from the cutoff. He is loose an over aggresive, and could have anything from AA to 56. The BB also calls.

Flop:K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, BB checks, and cutoff bets. The BB puts her cards between her middle and index fingers ready to muck. I raise, BB folds cutoff calls. Turn is a blank I bet and he folds. Honestly, I had no read on him, he could have flopped 3 kings for all I knew. But knowing he could hold such a wide range of hands, does anyone else make this type of play without some sort of draw with a board like this? Is this play + or - EV with a tight image with boards like this agaist a loose late postion raiser?

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

i hate the preflop call vs pretty much anyone

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

I'm assuming you'd threebet against a many different opponents then, right?

J

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

I do this too often.

But this is the right type of flop to do it at...there are a lot of turn cards that give you a hand or very legit draw, and unless he has a King, he'll have a tough time calling the turn. Knowing the BB will fold is key.

One thing I've noted about myself is that when I checkraise in this situation it means one thing, and when i bet out, it means something else, with waaaaay too much consistency. So, make sure you are also checkraising with real hands, and betting bluffs, etc....keep 'em guessing...

hope you booked a "W"...I may be up there tomorrow night...gotta start playing some satellites...

Josh

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

not if i'm playing well. i think queen high is not a good hand heads up, out of position, vs a raiser regardless of how dumb they are. i'm only 3betting if they'll fold to a bet on the flop if they miss.

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

Gaylord,

When the CO or button open raises, I'm starting to get the discipline to either fold or 3-bet from the small blind. I might be wrong, but if I'm going in then I want to knock out the big blind and take command of the pot.

I like the aggression after the flop. It's an area of my game that needs much improvement.

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

he has to be capable of folding small pockets and not capable of playing back at you with nothing, but if that's the case, then yes, this [censored] is OK.

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

Calling and raising the flop is a good alternative to 3-betting preflop.

Many opponents are more willing to believe you have a hand when you just call preflop and check-raise the flop. It 'looks' to your opponent more like the flop hit you and you have a real hand. Often if you 3-bet preflop they don't believe u and keep calling.

Additionally, I think this is a good flop to bluff at. You act first. there is no real likely draw out. There is only one card in the 'zone'. If he doesn't have a king he'll be hard-pressed to keep calling.

-Scott

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

not 3 betting preflop is criminal. What you did postflop was fine to do once , with or without the tell from the BB. They can't call 2 without a K, and the maniac will release a lot of hands on the turn. Yuo are risking 1 big bet to win 3.5 or 2 to win 4, so if it works 1/3 of the time, it shows a profit (probably more like 25-30% since you could outdraw a hand, esp. a small pair).

Dan Z.

Re: no flop, no draw, I raise!
 

I think I agree that even know I likely have the best hand preflop, considering my position and the aggresiveness of my opponent folding might be best. I think three betting is also OK too, probably a slightly better option calling. Honestly, I had two face cards, they were both the same color, and the other guy stunk, so, I wanted to play.

Anyhow the reason I posted this hand was because I have been thinking a lot about trying to take advantage of someone who has raised from late position and is likely to hold a number of differnent hands. When the flop comes down with a queen or king on board, and the other two cards are small, I think playing aggresively in these spots probably shows a profit, esspecially with a tight image. Preflop raisers, even from the cutoff or button seem much more likely to play back and over represent thier hand when the flop comes down all rags, or when the ace hits. So I guess I was just curious to get some other opinions. If anything, I think I probably make a few too many laydowns, and play a bit on the ABC side, so I'm trying to work on taking advantage of how my oppenents percive me at the table.