23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

Okay, so this is the first time i actually VPIP with 23s, but here is the scenario. Playing live 4/8(regular 8/16 and even the 5/10 games were full or closed)and it is literally 8-9 to every flop. One other semi decent regular is two seats to my left. The rest suck.

Hero is on button with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

crappy loose calls, crappy2 loose calls, crappy3 weak/tight calls, crappy 4 loose semi-aggro calls, crappy 5 weak/tight calls, I limp, SB completes, BB checks his option(i have yet to see him raise out of the BB or SB so this factored into my decision to limp, because i sure don't want to pay 2 sb's with this hand).

8 to flop for 8sb's

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checked to semi-aggro crappy 4 who bets, crappy 5 calls, I raise, 1 fold, crappy 2 calls, folded to semi-aggro who calls and crappy 5 who calls.

4 to the turn for 7.5 BB

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checks to me, i decide to check.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

check, semi aggro bets, folded to me, i raise, 1 fold, semi aggro calls.

Final pot: ~11 BB after rake

well, i'll probably never play that hand again outside of checking it in the big blind. i raised for a free card and to fold some people(if possible)so i took it even with the flush draw out there, it was bd so i was less concerned about it. anyway, i will be disappointed in this forum if someone doesn't have something bad to say...

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

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well, i'll probably never play that hand again outside of checking it in the big blind.

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5 people limped to you on the button - calling with 32s is clearly fine.

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

5 limpers? fine to cal with 23s.

Look at it this way... its an easy hand to let go and probebly both your cards are live [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

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well, i'll probably never play that hand again outside of checking it in the big blind.

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5 people limped to you on the button - calling with 32s is clearly fine.

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Would you call 25s there then? It makes just as many 2-card straights and actually has a little more high card strength.

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

I don't understand why you raised the flop; this doesn't seem like a good place to push bottom pair. You've got a bunch of loose opponents, a weak-tight calling with something, very tainted outs and you need to dodge every card in the deck twice over.

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

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Would you call 25s there then? It makes just as many 2-card straights and actually has a little more high card strength.

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Sure, why not? I'm not saying you are going to get rich in this situation. I don't think folding is wrong. I just think it doesn't matter (as in, it is so close to 0EV that we need not beat ourselves up about it).

I would play either in the SB without a second thought. Here it costs .5SB more, but we have position. Against a passive field like this (who will not raise into us and will give us free cards, etc.), I like the call just fine.

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

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you need to dodge every card in the deck twice over.

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You just answered your own question.

Discounting our outs substantially, we still have 1.5 outs to trips, 2 outs to two pair, 3 outs to a straight, and 1 out to a backdoor flush. Effectively 7.5 outs in a 10 bet pot. We clearly are not folding. Plus we could be ahead and would love for people with just overcards to (incorrectly) fold. Raising is better than calling, especially at a mostly passive table; it knocks people out and may get us a free card.

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

I like every street. nh

Re: 23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF
 

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i decide to check.

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Seems to me this should have been the plan.

Nh.