Difficulty with O8 concept from Zee\'s book
 

On page 190 of "High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players" Zee writes that you can play a lot of marginal hand from late position. The examples he gives are:
J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

OK, I understand the AKT4 hand because it can make the nuts with a flush or straight and back into a low, but I don't understand the other two. What's the gameplan with these sorts of hands? Are you trying to get into a shorthanded pot and semi-bluff weak tight players with your own marginal draws? That's my guess, but I really just don't get it.

Re: Difficulty with O8 concept from Zee\'s book
 

Okay, I've read Ray's book about five times or more now, but I still consider myself to be very much a beginner at O8, because it is such a multi-faceted games at different levels. Like Ray says, in the LL passive games, it is a "nut-nut" game. At the higher levels, it's more like a HE game. Tournaments are even more complex, as the betting levels increase.

Having said all of that, though, and admitting that I'm just starting to dig deeply into O8, I'll try to answer your questions.

With the 23 hand, you are looking for an ace to flop, plain and simple. It's so easy to get away from this hand post-flop, that if it only costs you one bet to see the flop, you can take it in LP.

With the 24 hand, almost ditto. You are looking for the A3, or some other kind of wheel/6-high nut straight possibility. On the high side, you are looking for your set of jacks, because there is less liklihood of a low, with a jack flopping.

LL, passive O8 is so much about seeing a cheap flop, then getting away from non-profitable hands after the flop. You have to really know how to play post-flop in that kind of game. It is the difference between winning and losing.

Good luck!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Difficulty with O8 concept from Zee\'s book
 

(In late pos'n, you have an opportunity to win additional money when you get a lucky flop.)

What I believe is what Ray is saying is if you can get in for one bet play these hands if the conditions are right because you have a chance to win both with a LUCKY FLOP.

As Felicia said you either hit or get out. Ray explains the 10-J on the following page when a 9-8-k flop how you have a chance to take it all down if you make a straight.

Paul

Re: Difficulty with O8 concept from Zee\'s book
 

if you play these in the back, often times you will get to pick up a pot when the flop is checked to you...

Re: Difficulty with O8 concept from Zee\'s book
 

I agree with your reasoning and have two small points to add. Zee says right up front that he will have us playing more hands than we expect (and we should tighten up some when learning); also, LP allows us to see how many are in the hand with us. I many times will play 23 if there are only a couple of callers in ahead of me. The chances of having an ace still in the deck are much greater.

24JJ is still too much of a gamble for me. I'm just not there yet.