Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

Folks. Have read and reread the section in SSHE on counting outs and still a bit confused about when to count overcards as partial outs.

Lets say I have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] k [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button, folded to me, I raise, both blinds call.

Flop is
9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB raises

Now counting outs here I would say I have 1.5 for the
BDFD....but, how many outs should I count the 3 aces and 3 kings as ?? 6 or 3 ?? 3 because TPTK may not be good here ??

See I'm a little confused as to when to count them as partial outs.

Hope someone knows what I'm on about. thanks.

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

You generally count overcards at half their value so you give yourself 3 outs here for the A & K combined. You could be reverse dominated (i.e., against A5s and K9s) so you can't count them as full outs. If someone flopped a set, you are drawing dead. There is more to the equation than that though. What reads do you have on SB & BB. What hands would they play this way?

If we assume you have 4.5 outs (1.5 for the BD and 3 for the A&K), you need 10.4:1 to call. You are getting 10:1 IF SB doesn't 3 bet and BB doesn't cap. If it gets 3 bet or capped your odds go way down. I would let this go. I don't like being 2 bet into when I was PFR (even though it could have been a steal attempt) and the pot isn't that big. This may be a little weak but I personally wait for a better spot.

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You generally count overcards at half their value so you give yourself 3 outs here for the A & K combined. You could be reverse dominated (i.e., against A5s and K9s) so you can't count them as full outs. If someone flopped a set, you are drawing dead. There is more to the equation than that though. What reads do you have on SB & BB. What hands would they play this way?

If we assume you have 4.5 outs (1.5 for the BD and 3 for the A&K), you need 10.4:1 to call. You are getting 10:1 IF SB doesn't 3 bet and BB doesn't cap. If it gets 3 bet or capped your odds go way down. I would let this go. I don't like being 2 bet into when I was PFR (even though it could have been a steal attempt) and the pot isn't that big. This may be a little weak but I personally wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. this not an actual hand, just made it up as a scenario.

So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each ?

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

The standard deduction is to 1.5 each. There are different instances where that can be changed, but this isn't one of them. In particular, we're worried about hands A5 and K9, which have us reverse dominated.

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You generally count overcards at half their value so you give yourself 3 outs here for the A & K combined. You could be reverse dominated (i.e., against A5s and K9s) so you can't count them as full outs. If someone flopped a set, you are drawing dead. There is more to the equation than that though. What reads do you have on SB & BB. What hands would they play this way?

If we assume you have 4.5 outs (1.5 for the BD and 3 for the A&K), you need 10.4:1 to call. You are getting 10:1 IF SB doesn't 3 bet and BB doesn't cap. If it gets 3 bet or capped your odds go way down. I would let this go. I don't like being 2 bet into when I was PFR (even though it could have been a steal attempt) and the pot isn't that big. This may be a little weak but I personally wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting 9.5:2 and it's a very easy fold.

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each ?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

And I don't think this is a lc post.

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I assume he he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha. That works, too. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Newbie question on counting outs (low content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I did. thanks for the replies. Think I'm getting it now.

OK one more scenario to see if I'm grasping this

Hero is in CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he raises, SB calls, everyone else folds.

Flop comes down 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, so now we have the BDFD for 1.5 outs and we would count our overcards as 6 outs here since TPTk would likely win this pot since it is headsup and the flop is not co-ordinated ???

Assume no reads on SB.