Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

My question is already stated in the subject, but, to amplify: it seems that, when it gets right down to it, the REALLY successful players are distinguished by how well they remember how their opponents have played previous hands. Is this wrong? Should I be working to strengthen this capacity for remembering? I'm asking this because it occurs to me that everyone can (and largely HAS) read poker books to learn what you need to open an unraised pot from early position, and other, learnable things like that, but that, when you hear, say, T.J. Cloutier say "I may not remember your name if I meet you again ten years from now, but I'll remember your face and how you play poker," that he is, intentionally or otherwise, spouting the ultimate cosmic poker wisdom the way the oracle at Delphi did when Socrates and others made the pilgrammage there in search of true knowledge. Does memory separate the great from the merely good?

My motto: Get 'em & Bet 'em!

Re: Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

in pot limit and no limit there is no question an excellent memory is a huge and almost insurmountable edge. i suspect the r value for excellent memory corrolating with ability to read people runs in the 0.6+ range.

matt

Re: Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

I believe it is. Best example I can think of is stud. Be honest and ask yourself how many times you or your opponent has been waiting for a card that was already face up and buried? In the World Series Employee event this year I was able to take the chip lead on the final table with an AK vs AQ matchup based solely on the fact how my opponent played the same hand in the sixth hour of the tournament. Without being able to recall how he played the hand and betting manuerisms I could never had made the call on the final table. Am I saying I am a great player? Far from it. Does memory account for a huge portion of my success in poker? Absolutely. Hope this helps =o)

Re: Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

I agree on memory being very important in stud. Many players don't seem to pay it much mind, but it can make all the difference.

Memory and alertness are related, and so are memory and understanding, and memory and creativity. Memory is a foundation and intimate part of much higher level thinking. So working on your memory means you're not only giving yourself the opportunity to think better; you're very likely flat out thinking better in the first place.

Good memory is a key skill in a lot of life. Get a good memory because you're interested in playing poker better, and you could well find yourself doing a lot of things in your life at least a little bit better, maybe a lot.

Re: Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

Doyle Brunson has said this:

"The question I've been asked the most over the years is, "What does it take to make a good poker player?" Who knows what it takes? I don't know. It's an innate ability that you can't describe ... you just can't explain it. People have tried, but they can't do it. It's something inside you that causes you to pull away from the field. I do know that with just the knowledge and ability to play, you can play at a certain level, but you have to have that "something" inside you to pull away. It's a sixth sense, or an inclination to win, or something. How can you say, for instance, that I am a better player than David Sklansky or Mike Caro? I think that obviously I probably am, but the two of them are the foremost authorities on poker. They know everything ... the situations and what you're supposed to do... yet when it comes time to perform them, they can't do it. They chill up or something happens."
"The explanation I wrote in the book is the best one that I've ever thought of. And it's one that I had never thought about before I wrote the book (that's one reason why I'm glad I wrote it). It's a sense of recall that great players have. You recall what happened the last time you were in this same situation with a player of that caliber. Starting off, you put players in categories by watching their table mannerisms, the way they handle their chips, the way they handle their cards, and so on. You say to yourself that this guy's a certain kind of player, and that guy's a certain kind of player, and then when you get in a pot with them, you recall - subconsciously - the last time you were playing with a guy like that and a similar situation came up. So, you play according to the way the guy played previously. And that's the best way I can explain it."

Re: Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

I have to agree with Doyle's statement here.

For the most part, poker is developed with solid skills, reads, experience, and savvy. But a small part of a true poker player has to be some sort of innate undefining sense that allows you to just know that the other person has whatever hand you put them. I have done it. I have seen many other players do it. It is undescribable for the most part.

Does it distinguish good players from bad players. No. Bottom line is whoever makes more money is the better player. It doesn't matter how they play, the end result is all that matter and money talks and everything can take a walk. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: no
 

how many times do you run against the same players? maybe this is true on the tournament circut where you see the same faces, but playing online, not really...

Re: Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?
 

Learning is repetition, and the more concentrated you are, the better you learn.

Play often, whether you play life or online, if you run into the same people again and again, you will even unintentionally learn how they play.
That should more than make up for your not have a photographic memory. I don't have one. But I do learn that my succes is directly dependant of how often I play and how concentrated I am when I do so.

Re: no
 

Or in live casino play. Casino players very frequently see the same players every day. There even starts to develop a sense of a kind of "community" among them something like you'd see develop anywhere else. They may never talk about the play of the hands with regular players, but among the smaller community of people they've come to know and respect a bit, they might discuss hands and even think on problems and come back with a different take on them a day later. They often discuss honestly and frankly because they appreciate the feedback they themselves get from others -- two heads being better than one kind of thing. Bad beat commiseration is there but newer players tend to talk about them more; players who have been around for a while and know each other better are more likely to tell a bad beat story if there's a joke embedded in it somewhere, or just to discuss specific hands and situations in detail, or just socialize. Maybe even carpool to a different casino for a quick tournament and come back. Or to a strip club or bar, if it's that kind of night and they're into that.

Casino players may eventually know such a high percentage of the people they play with at least a little that the exception is the new guy nobody knows anything about.

Re: no
 

Online I think Brunson's ability to "type" players is even more important. The more you play the greater the number of categories you can define and recognize.

And as you point out you're far less likely to run into the same players. So for me the most important factor is focus. You're concentrating on the game and categorising your opponents.