Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Great Job Doctor Al, my favorite article this month. I look foward to the mext installment.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

While I also enjoyed the article, I was left wondering...

I agree that poker is a great medium that teaches competitiveness, but if a person applies those lessons only to poker, where is society's gain?

At least in my experience, those who claim that poker has no societal use are usually refering to professional players with no other job. If the poker player in question has a "day job" and plays poker as an addition source of income (rather than his or her only source), then people tend to view it as a hobby and they don't seem to take as much issue with it. Am I wrong here? Do others have similar or different experiences?

Going back to my original question, I'm still having a hard time seeing society's gain from someone who applies his competitive drive only to poker and not to another vocation. Perhaps this will be discussed in part 2?

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Hiya -

Right now, I play poker as a hobby. I have a steady, secure full time job with benefits, and I'm still learning the game. However, my competitive drive compels me to learn as much as possible so that I don't become a weak player. Therefore, I read, study, and play as much as I possibly can.

The competition from poker has bled into my workplace in positive ways. I handle conflict better, without the emotional issues, my evaluation skills have improved recognizing what my weaknesses are and what I need to do improve them, and finally, I recognize the battles where I will lose and recognize those that I can win and act appropriately.

I do not think that is true for MOST of the hobbyist poker players right now, so in that sense you are right. However, I think the overall theme of Dr. Al's article addressed how competition is being squelched overall. I think schools can err on both sides - having learning situations so competitive that the weakest have no chance to succeed, but being so bland that everybody wins. There has to be moderation and there has to be some value on competition.

If the recreational player can learn to apply the skills learned at the poker table to life pursuits, then society would improve. But many do not know how or care to learn the game with any depth to have these skills carry over, and I think that is a reflection of our society not wanting to learn how to learn more than anything else. Self-evaluation is difficult, but once applied, can be a very useful tool in living life better.

PB

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Am I the only person who found this article very, very disapointing.

While I agree with much of the sentiment of the article, Alan presents no actual evidence to support his opinions.

While the statements from the educators implying that "cometition is bad" made me wince - I would like to see evidence as to whether their policies work or not before condemning them. Although stifling competition seems bad at face value, there are many cases where what works and what doesn't in education (as with many other areas) is counterintuitive (e.g. there is significant evidence to show that many incentive schemes which look good on paper actually have a negative effect). I am surprised that 2+2 - the home of "fighting fuzzy thinking" - promote such a weak analysis.

And as to the assertion that "Because of anti-competitive attitudes, our economy and living standards are at risk. In a few decades America has gone from being the world's largest creditor to the world's largest debtor...", forgive my stupidty, but isn't your national debt rather more to do with budgetary policy than 'anti-competitive attitudes'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely in favour of competition - but in my view we should be applauding articles because of the quality of their analysis, not just because we happen to agree with the points beign put forward. This article may have a good point to make, but the analysis and evidence used to support it is shoddy.

ZB

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I agree with the sentiment that Al's section relating to the US economy left much to be desired. In particular, the trade deficit is essentially meaningless, and the national debt is an acceptible % of GDP.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I found it to be an interesting article. There are some aspects I agree with...others I didn't. But it did make me think.

Some thoughts/observations:

I think the incidents of downplaying competitivenes in American schools may be exaggerated (although I have no data or evidence for this opinion).
There are many situations I'm sure of where some honor-society student commits suicide because they couldn't deal with the pressure and eventual disappointment of NOT making valedictorian or first-flute in the orchestra, or whatever.

There are many suburbs in America where all you need to do is swing by a little-league soccer or baseball game to draw an opposite conclusion from what Dr. Al represents in the article: That we are actually getting a bit carried-away by our competitiveness and are perhaps pushing our kids to hard.

Seems that the incidents that Dr. Al sited were just exaggerated rebound-responses to some of the over-competitiveness that is out there.

A little balance would be appropriate of course. Fostering SOME degree of competitiveness without going over-board and putting an excessive amount of pressure on our youth.


I feel my background had a fine amount of balance in competitiveness.
I have always been a fairly competitive person even though my parents never really pushed me a whole lot. I simply enjoyed competing.
My Dad taught me to play chess when I was 6 and we played every single night. I was determined to beat him and I eventually did when I was 9. I never got frustrated. I just liked trying to play.
When I would play with my friends it was kind of boring because I was so much better than them and there was no challenge.

Since I was so small growing up I had little chance to succeed too much in physical sports....but I enjoyed the experience of playing as hard as I could...and still do.
I played in a couple of adult-soccer leagues this year...I'm 34 and was trying to run-around and keep up with faster and bigger 25 year-olds (with only marginal success).


I played little-league baseball (I was awful) and my Dad was our coach for a couple of years. We had a competitive drive and succeeded without any pressure. Just go out and have fun and play hard.
But we did whatever it took to win...pulling the 'hidden-ball trick' or telling the umpire that their player should be out because he took his helmet off while the ball was still in play.
you can play hard and be nit-picky about the rules in your efforts to win without enforcing a "if you don't throw a strike your world is going to come to an end" type of mentality.
We had the least amount of talent in the league but finished 8-6. If we lost we were okay....because we put forth a solid effort and played hard.

Later in college...I was an umpire in that same little-league for $8/gm.
For some reason we didn't have any mightmare issues with parents that are common-place elsewhere. The kids played hard and enjoyed themselves. Even the team that was grossly out-manned and lost virtually every game 25-2 before eventually winning their last game of the year I think benefitted from the lessons of little-league baseball.


I worked for a couple of individuals who were die-hard Tennessee football fans. Would drive 7+ hours for every home game, etc.
If Tennessee lost they took it very personally to the extent that they would get extremely depressed. They just took the games WAY too seriously.

I believe I have read of studies that fans who take too much joy or sadness in the results of their pro or college sports team typically have other psychological issues (perhaps including not enough involvement with one's family while growing-up although I can't remember for sure).


Okay - One last little tale...sorry...I know it's long.
Dr. Al's article reminded me of my grade-school gym-teacher (named Richard Simmons....seriously, that was his real name).
We would be playing soccer or basketball or something and Mr. Simmons would wait for the game to be tied...and THEN he would blow his whistle signalling the end of the game and the end of gym-class for the day.
"Final score is 9-9!! It's a tie so EVERYBODY WINS!!"
All of 4th graders were REALLY pissed-off every time he did that. We would call him "Mr. 'Everybody-Wins!!' Simmons" because he did it so much.
15-20 years later I worked with Mr. Simmons for several years in a college-athletics environment (he was no longer a gym teacher) and he was actually just as interested in the results of the home team as the next guy. I think he did the Tie-Score thing for us 4th graders because he saw that we were taking the game TOO seriously.
no real point....just a funny little story that the article reminded me of.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Alan - good article, you have good thoughts. I disagree with one prat though

"Many people would say, "No," but they would be wrong"

Poker is very complex and how it interacts with society is very complex I don't think we can know for sure one way or the other if it is good for society or bad. I think it's a alot more accurate to say something like "poker has socially useful aspects" or something like that, anyway you should get the idea of w hat I'm saying.

Microbob - please make your posts shorter, everyone of them is an essay.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the incidents of downplaying competitivenes in American schools may be exaggerated (although I have no data or evidence for this opinion).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're quite wrong about this. When I was in high school (which was not very long ago) there was actually an effort made to eliminate all honors and advanced placement classes on the premise that all of the students were equally intelligent. Supposedly the disparity in results was entirely due to self-esteem and the higher-quality instruction that some students received in their honors courses. It "wasn't fair" that some students were singled out for special treatment (even though each student had the option to sign up for whichever course they wanted).

I recall at one sporting event where an announcement was made which began: "At the conclusion of the match, the non-winner will...."

Grade inflation is very real as well. C is most certainly not average, a C is bad. The honor roll is such a joke that they'd be better off eliminating it -- to not make the list is actually pretty embarrassing since nearly everyone makes it.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Well....not quite EVERY one of them.

But you are correct, I get rather wordy far too much.
When the caffeine hits me I guess I can't shut-up.

My apologies.



Soah - Perhaps I wasn't aware of the length of this problem. Your school situation sounds really ridiculous.

i made the honor-society (just barely really) in H.S. I think we had 40 members out of a class of 350 which I think is a reasonable number.

You're right that a C is certainly not the average.
I'm reminded of several Fox-Trot comic strips where the nerdy kid is upset that he only got an A++ and that is going to completely screw-up his A++++++ average.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Greetings.

Would someone be so kind as to provide a link or info relating to accessing the footnoted article on "Ten lessons poker teaches great investors"?

Thanks to all, and special thanks to twoplustwo for giving us another great resource.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
While I agree with much of the sentiment of the article, Alan presents no actual evidence to support his opinions.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a thesis. Mason also placed a restriction to the length of the articles.

[ QUOTE ]
And as to the assertion that "Because of anti-competitive attitudes, our economy and living standards are at risk. In a few decades America has gone from being the world's largest creditor to the world's largest debtor...", forgive my stupidty, but isn't your national debt rather more to do with budgetary policy than 'anti-competitive attitudes'.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the attitude of anti-competitiveness is surely one of the key driving forces behind sloppy budgetary and monetary policy, is it not? The fact that that America is importing far more than than it's able to export in terms or goods and services now goes down to a micro-economic and fundamental level that something is just wrong. And the heart of that problem severely lies within the competitive spirit.

It may be an area where little literature exists, but to deny it is dangerous.

The primary example, is within the Automobile Industry. For over 20 years Americans had the important dominance in the automotive sector. Yet, in the 80's they lost huge market gains across the world to the Japanese and Europeans. Why? Because the Japanese and Europeans got smart, competed and thrived on it while the Americans sat back and refused to change.

I don't want to go into a thesis here, but without competitivess, the detriment to society is harmful to say the least. When China and Russia when through heavy reform during the 60's and 70's under Communism, competition ceased to exist and the result was chaos, poor quality of goods and services, and an economy in turmoil.

Lawrence

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Not only is this article dissapointing but dangerous in its thinking. The author seems to advocate that a young persons' (or the nations' for that matter) future rests on learning to gamble. Yes gamble. While the card game of poker may have valuable, certainly teaching Americas' youth to gamble in order to succeed in life borders on the ludicris.

Maybe I'll go read the article again. Surely I misread it.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
In mid-November Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve Chairman, stated that our trade deficit threatens the economy, and the stock market dropped precipitously. It may have been news to the public, but it should have been obvious that we could not continue indefinitely to spend more than we earn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what the author's phd is in, but we can eliminate Economics from discussion.

The trade deficit means we spend more overseas than people overseas spend here, not that we spend more than we earn.

Martin

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I don't think the article advocates gambling for teenagers. What the article does do is point out a problem that is arising in our school system.

With a wife and mother who are teachers and a father who is a school administration I have heard these horror stories. From removing dodgeball because it is too competitive. To teachers being approached to raise grades because the child has "low self esteem." "No child left behind" removing subjects such as history from school. There are also stories from Ivy league schools about two different grades. One grade for the student and one for the permanent record of the student. Because god forbid, if someone was to get a B it would destroy their chance to get a big time job.

There is a glaring lack of competitive spirit in schools and this may be what is drawing so many teenagers to poker to start with. It feeds the competive drive that some kids have. One that I know I had that poker filled and fills very well.

A great article that I passed on to my father and wife, really outlines a true problem. Interesting solution, that would have little traction. Still very thought provoking, which I believe was the true intent.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
From removing dodgeball because it is too competitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, I think the major imputus for removing dodgeball is that it is an "elimination game", and thus the first people knocked out get little exercise, as well as promoting bullying, I assume.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

You must distinguish between the national debt and our massively negative trade balance.
The national debt is money owed by the government because of budget deficits. It is trillions of dollars. Some of it is owed to foreigners, some to Americans. It is not directly related to our lack of competitiveness.
The trade deficit is caused by our buying more from foreign sources than we sell in foreign markets. It is many billions of dollars per month. We simply can't compete in many markets.
It appears that I was not clear enough. I wrote: "we are losing the world's most important competition." I was referring ONLY to international trade. If we don't win that competition, it is literally impossible for us to preserve our international position and standard of living. You, I, and our economy as a whole must either earn more than we spend or pay severe consequences.
To put it in poker terms, if you lose a lot of money every month, sooner or later you don't have a bankroll.
Regards,
Al

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I had some similar reactions as MicroBob.

I do think Poker is socially useful, but because it teaches competitiveness in a pure meritocracy?

Our culture is a great big messy, sloshy morass of competing and often contradictory impulses, ideas, and directions. But to suggest that competition is being eradicated and devalued in our culture instead of glorified is to look at our world through a bizarre set of blinders. Competition is glorified and promoted in so many different areas that its hard to avoid it, from sports to business, to--I don't know--American Idol?

Go on, just for fun, why don't you sit down and think of a dozen endeavors, areas, activities where competition is embraced, promoted, glorified. Or heck, why not two dozen, or three, or a hundred? I bet you can do it.

Are there also places and impulses to mute competition, to promote alternative values? Sure. But to suggest that somehow the spirit of competition is being wrung out of our culture because of that is simply to deny reality.

But even if you were to take the loss of competitiveness as a given, the idea that Poker is tremendously valuable in teaching competitiveness is also silly. To begin with, you can't even get to play serious poker (generally speaking) until you are 18 or even 21--if you don't know anything about competition by then its getting a little late, and in any case, life is certainly going to start slapping you in the face with the necessity to compete in the world at that point.

And a meritocracy? Bah. I'd suggest that there are tremendous numbers of losing poker players who aren't even aware that they are losing poker players. Good lessons it merit being learned by all eh? And unlike sports, where, although luck often plays a factor, a great athlete or team at the peak of it's performance can often take luck out of the equation, a great poker player can be at the peak of his skill, playing his best and be crushed in any given session, any given tournament and even in a long series of sessions or tournaments.

Nine people at the final table of the WSOP, how many of the top 30 players in the world made it there? Heck how many of the top 30 players in the tournament made it? One?

Over the long term poker may be a ruthless meritocracy, but its been demonstrated on this forum many times that the long term is incredibly long...too long I would suggest for it be a meritocracy in fact or appearance for the vast majority of players.

Not very well expressed on my part perhaps, but hopefully the gist is there.

--Zetack

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

You wrote: "Still very thought provoking, which I believe was the true intent."

You're right. I had hoped to get a rather different discussion going, and it appears I've succeeded.

Let's look at poker in as many ways as possible.

But let's never forget that it's just a game, and that is should never become too important to us.

I am appalled by the stories and posts I've read about students' failing exams because they have played too much poker.

Regards,

Al

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You must distinguish between the national debt and our massively negative trade balance.
The national debt is money owed by the government because of budget deficits. It is trillions of dollars. Some of it is owed to foreigners, some to Americans. It is not directly related to our lack of competitiveness.
The trade deficit is caused by our buying more from foreign sources than we sell in foreign markets. It is many billions of dollars per month. We simply can't compete in many markets.
It appears that I was not clear enough. I wrote: "we are losing the world's most important competition." I was referring ONLY to international trade. If we don't win that competition, it is literally impossible for us to preserve our international position and standard of living. You, I, and our economy as a whole must either earn more than we spend or pay severe consequences.
To put it in poker terms, if you lose a lot of money every month, sooner or later you don't have a bankroll.
Regards,
Al

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know enough economics to assess the validty of the above. However, I question the trade imbalance being a function of our being outcompeted by the rest of the world. I would suggest instead that it is the incredible comptetitive drive of americans that has created vast national wealth with which to out consume the rest of the world. (Or perhaps we are simply more competitive consumers [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). And the ruthless comptetive spirit of american businesses which lead them to internationalize, to seek any comptetive advantage and to produce goods in locations outside the United States.

Just a thought.

--Zetack

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great Job Doctor Al, my favorite article this month. I look foward to the mext installment.

[/ QUOTE ]

hear hear. i bought psychology of poker after having read this article. Dont feel so good about myself after having read the section on loose, agressive players... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

fim

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

You did. This was the best article on poker I have ever read. If you want to convince your family thatpoker is okay, email them a copy.

-Daver

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Over the long term poker may be a ruthless meritocracy, but its been demonstrated on this forum many times that the long term is incredibly long...too long I would suggest for it be a meritocracy in fact or appearance for the vast majority of players.
--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

Well expressed and on-the-nose . . . I think that poker has a lot going for it (not the least of which is emotional control in the face of Unfairness, i.e., bad beats) but as far as the meritocracy angle goes -- yeeks. No way. The long run is just a little too long.

IMHO a little bit too much of an Ayn-Randian rant on his part, but eh, whattya gonna do.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

So, whenever anyone on the Forum or Magazine refers to "we" they are not referring to Canadians, Europeans or other members of the world commnity, they are refrring to the "USA".

I thought the one of the big advantages of an internet magazine and forum, in line with poker rooms, is to create an international community? This article, while I accept that the larger portion of players and forum users are from the USA, is in a style, and uses examples, that refer to USA citizens only.

Quoting american companies (who the hell are "Fidelity"?) and other American examples does not help, talking about the article in terms of what it can do for the USA economy does not help. Do articles on the psychology of poker uniquely apply to the USA? As a regular user of the forum and player of internet poker I am in contact with non-USA people, and it is not an insignificant minority.

I would suggest that if the USA wants to become competitive again, it needs to start recognising the existence and validity of the rest of the world (i.e. the countries that are not the USA) and communicate accordingly. The rest of the world is not "just like" the USA, just because they have a MacDonalds. Articles in this magazine should go beyond national identities and boundaries, and I struggle to understand how this article was published with such a distorted viewpoint. Has the situation in the USA really got that bad? that you feel it is not worth talking about issues outside the USA? If I had penned an article making references to "Tony Benn" and the "Rover Plant outside Dagenham" would anyone outside the UK have a clue what I was talking about?

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

"I would suggest that if the USA wants to become competitive again, it needs to start recognising the existence and validity of the rest of the world"

Yeah, the USA is terribly uncompetitive with the rest of the world. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

We recognize the existance of the rest of the world, it's where we outsource all our unskilled jobs in order to maximize our profit and wealth. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

What a lame response.

You say with pointless sarcasm:

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the USA is terribly uncompetitive with the rest of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Al says in his article says:

[ QUOTE ]
We must...recognize that we are losing the world's most important competition, and do whatever it takes to start winning again.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with Al? because it sure as hell looks like you are not agreeing. You perhaps belong to the group of Governmental hacks who believe that a huge balance of payments defecit is sustainable... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I am still not sure what the point of your post is, is to demonstrate you have your head buried in the sand? or is to disagree with Al? Or is it post-party alcohol induced bravado?

The fact remains, this forum and magazine are read by people across the world, and I am stunned that anyone would write such an insular and blinkered article. If you want to demonstrate that you care not what the rest of the world thinks and only want to read articles about the good ol' boys and Uncle Sam, then carry on as you are. How utterly disappointing.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I disagree with Al's points about the economy, the national debt, and the trade deficit. I mentioned that in my first post in the thread.

"You perhaps belong to the group of Governmental hacks who believe that a huge balance of payments defecit is sustainable"

It is. The national debt is at a more than acceptible level.

"The fact remains, this forum and magazine are read by people across the world, and I am stunned that anyone would write such an insular and blinkered article. If you want to demonstrate that you care not what the rest of the world thinks and only want to read articles about the good ol' boys and Uncle Sam, then carry on as you are. How utterly disappointing."

Sorry, but Al lives in America and that's his experience. While I'm sure that people all over the world read this site, I doubt it's much of a stretch to estimate that more than 95% are American. Besides, what do you expect him to use as his reference? Somewhere he's unfamiliar with? If you had an internet magazine with 95% English readers, I'd have to be pretty out of line to come and demand that you cater specifically to the non-English readers.

Perhaps if people like you got over your inferiority complex, you'd be a lot happier. Al has some bad examples and incorrect conclusions in the article, but using America as his frame of reference is a non-issue.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I I have heard these horror stories. From removing dodgeball because it is too competitive. To teachers being approached to raise grades because the child has "low self esteem." "No child left behind" removing subjects such as history from school.

[/ QUOTE ]

A student a few years ago was heart playing dodgeball, and schools aren't allowed to play it. There are ways around it. I know local schools play "medic" When someone is hit with the ball they are out until the medic touches them and they are back in.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

i'm sorry but this is an appallingly written article...
for a publisher with such a good reputation,i cannot believe twoplustwo published an arguement that starts with the sentence "Many people would say, "No," but they would be wrong. "
i can't fully engage with the arguements since i live in ireland and don't know much about the american education system,but in the irish education system a 15 year old would know that this is an unacceptable way of starting an arguement...
its gets worse-as mentioned,spurious economic generalisations are made,and no effort is made to back up arguements with evidence...
referring to someone quoted as an idiot is not a way to express any arguement unless you are writing for a tabloid newspaper...

someone said this is not meant to be a thesis in its defence:this point is a fallacy worthy of the article itself...
there are plenty of people who are quite capable of explaining a complex arguement succinctly in an article length piece without resorting to the sort of childishness displayed in this one,if mr schoonmaker is incapable of doing so that does not put him beyond criticism
in general i trust twoplustwo as a publisher because i assume that someone who knows more about the topic at hand than me has written something intelligently and that the publishers know enough to filter out this sort of rubbish...

other than that i enjoyed the rest of the magazine,hopefully the rest of the issues will cut out sub-polemic schoolboy arguements....

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is. The national debt is at a more than acceptible level.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be interesting if you could be bothered to explain why and how passing billions of dollars to other economies is "sustainable". If your account is running in the red, your business will go bust. National economies clearly work to different rules, but the basic premise must be the same. But fine, if you are happy to believe this then you can do so, it just might be better to explain your reasoning on something which goes directly against common sense.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but Al lives in America and that's his experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, are you really that ignorant? Al is an educated professional, not a redneck just in from hoeing his fields. You have television in the USA, right? You have an education system that deals with non-US issues, no? This tired old line of "he lives in the USA, so he knows nothing else" is just about the saddest response imaginable, and unfortunately so very typical of the arrogance and dismissiveness of your country today. I would expect any academic to be able to comfortably write an article that made non-geographical references, or at the very least to provide sufficient detail of the used references so that anyone reading the article was aware of their relevance.

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt it's much of a stretch to estimate that more than 95% are American

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always good to back up your claims with statistics, so I am assuming you are guessing. From the posters in the SH forum I would say that a significant minority are non-USA. But the real question is, do you only want to write for USA poker players? If so, then please say so. This is hilarious, considering that not one of the poker rooms acutally runs its business from your country, or is this more "outsourcing low-skilled work"? No-one has said anything about writing in other languages, but that is, in fact a very good idea, if you are interested in a global market. Translation does not cost much, I suggest starting with French and Spanish and consider Japanese (who love to gamble).

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps if people like you got over your inferiority complex, you'd be a lot happier.

[/ QUOTE ]

How very sad. This is exactly the kind of pompous attitude you accuse the British of having. I have no inferiority complex with the USA, that idea only exists in your superiority complex. I would imagine that that the very huge majority of Europeans much prefer to live here than the USA, your so-called higher living standards (if we can call plastic food, polluted cities and super-high crime/murder rate "higher-standards"). If you really beleive others are jealous, then I suggest it is you that needs to sort your head out and stop using lame excuses for your own arrogance and ignorance. Can you imagine what people over here think of your schools that try to ban "evolution" in biology classes? or the utterly inhumane death sentence (which fails in its aim of reducing violent crime)? or your pitiful Social Security system? your two-tier health care system that condemns vast swathes of your population to effectively no-health care? No probably not, but you just might get the inkling that there is more to life and its enjoyment that the material luxuries you so obviously covet. Culture being one of them. Jealous? Inferior? Grow up.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

"It would be interesting if you could be bothered to explain why and how passing billions of dollars to other economies is "sustainable". If your account is running in the red, your business will go bust. National economies clearly work to different rules, but the basic premise must be the same."

No, it's not. Businesses of all types operate with constant debt. It's a good thing, not a bad one. Any basic college business course goes over this.

Regarding Al, just because something is published on the internet doesn't mean one is responsible for making it accesible or relevant the the entire friggin planet. Get over yourself.

As for the rest of your post - it's pretty amusing. Are you trying to convince yourself? Unlike you who seem dying for us to acknowledge the validity of other countries' values and systems, we don't give a rats ass if you think ours is valid or not. Cheers.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I am well aware that business operate with constant debt, but they do not operate with a constant loss. This is a difference that "any basic business course" would teach, as well.

[ QUOTE ]
making it accesible or relevant the the entire friggin planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your childishness knows no bounds, it seems. I have never made the point that is should be accessible to the entire population of the planet. In fact you could say I was just suggesting the English-speaking world. From a marketing perspective, I would have thought that translation into other languages would be considered a good thing; you may have noticed the internet is global. The Magazine is clearly a promotional vehicle (there are no sales revenues directly associated with it) and no reason why it should not appeal to non-English speaking countries. Why you have a problem with this is beyond me, but you do seem to have a problem with the rest of the world in general, do you feel threatened? Oh yes, you do don't you...

As a "minority" I have every right to ask that such articles be written in a style that reflects the international community, my request is entirely reasonable. I am also suprised that this is not SOP, as it must be apparent that there are a lot of non-USA readers. The article was incredibly insular, and from a professional such as Al I expected more consideration for this. You of course, don't care, but I am not interested in your xenophobic attitudes, merely in being able to read articles are accessible to the readership. This really is not difficult to achieve, so does not present any large obstacles. Why you have a problem with this notion is beyond me, though it it clear you personally have difficulty expressing yourself coherently and with consideration for others. If that is the image you wish to portray then you are merely confirming the stereotypic All-American pig-head image that is so popular here in the civilised world. Well done.

[ QUOTE ]
we don't give a rats ass if you think ours is valid or not. Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and I imagine for one moment your belligerent opinions are actually representative? Now that is amusing. Your attitude clearly belongs firmly in the Donald Rumsfeld camp of arrogant dismissal. If that is the kind of person poker produces then I think that there is a need to make sure it stays out of your educational system, somehow the idea of a nation of Bush/Rumsfeld/Clarkmeister clones fills my head with images from "Dawn of the Dead" (or perhaps even "Shaun of the Dead" which is funnier but, you may not have that film over there).

When you grow up Clark, you will realise just how stupid your comments have been.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Sorry...that was Americanized. I mean, "don't get your knickers in a twist".

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Do computers have translation software?

Are some of these software programs free to download?

I think that English should be declared the international language of poker - sort of like the 'English Only' rule during the play of hands at live poker in America and, one would assume, England; the fountainhead of civil behavior.

Aside from the international scientific community, which is still a somewhat fraudulent term, there is no 'international community'.

Rating or placing Clarkmeister alongside Bush and Rumsfeld is a rather quizzical way to express your opinions, of not only the mentioned triad, but of America itself. You labor under too many illusions and possibly delusions. You have little to no understanding of America. I have a book suggestion: For you Limeys

So that you know who I am, and can pigeonhole me into your worldview, to the fullest extant possible for your apparent limited capacity to understand, I voted for George Bush and am profoundly proud of this fact.

-Zeno, An American.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

If anyone fails to understand it is you. The point of my post is not to slam the USA but to suggest the Article written by Al could have been better considered. Clarkmeister is the one who appears to take personal umbridge at my suggestion that a lot of readers will not understand the references. I am also not the only one to say so in this thread.

I am not surprised, although always disappointed, that any "questioning" of the way things are done in America is taken as an attack on the values of that country. What a paranoid place it must be. The fact that many "do not understand" America is itself an argument to use less specific references. Perhaps a better title for Al's article is "Can Poker help the USA Economy?", as I see little social comment or indeed any relevance to anyone outside the USA. This apart, Al does make some pertinent points, and gets quite a lot into what is a short article. It is otherwise well written.

Your "pride" in voting for the Monkey King is only to be expected from someone who makes no contribution to this thread of any kind, other than to question non-USA citizen's right to express their opinions when they run contrary to your "patriotic values". Fortunately, your "Patriot Act" only gags USA citizens. "Patriotism" is an ugly word, and especially when espoused by the Bush camp, who take it to mean the right to interfere in world politics, attack sovereign nations and bomb factories in far flung places around the world. The poker "community" is international, the term "international community" obviously refers to considering the whole planet as a single community, which is perhaps only reasonable given the nature of world trade. Or do you think that other lives are cheaper than American lives, oh yes, you do don't you "we don't do body counts...". I could go on about your Government and its indisputably illegal actions on the international stage, and it's poisonous and damaging effect on the international community (which you deny exists, much like the International Court of Jutsice, the UN, Human Rights etc.) but this is not the place to do that.

I agree that translation software could be used, and also do not have a problem if only English was used. But anyone reading Al's article who is not a USA citizen will feel cheated, or at least disappointed with it's insular content. For an article that appears to be some sort of social comment, it is misleading. As I say, perhaps a more thoughtful title would be better. If the article was clearly a comment about the USA, fine, it is the assumption that what applies to the USA applies to all that is at the heart of this, and many other issues.

I don't need to pigeonhole you, you and Clark seem to do a very good job of that yourselves. Fortunately I know some American citizens who are thoughtful and considerate, and have a different world view. This gives me hope.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't need to pigeonhole you, you and Clark seem to do a very good job of that yourselves. Fortunately I know some American citizens who are thoughtful and considerate, and have a different worldview. This gives me hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a worldview that fits snuggly with your own?

The purpose of my post was not to discuss Al's article. I was interested in the response that I would get from you. You did not disappoint. You also failed to see the relevance of the book suggestion. You have your own blinders; can't you even see that simple observation? Much of your post proves it (the ‘political’ part anyway).

By the way, I also own six different types of firearms. Does this help solidify in your mind the type of person I am?

-Zeno

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

What can you do with six that you can't do with one?

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

If I had six wives would you ask the same question? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Think about that for a minute or two. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But we are way, way off topic now.

-Zeno

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm sorry but this is an appallingly written article...
for a publisher with such a good reputation,i cannot believe twoplustwo published an arguement that starts with the sentence "Many people would say, "No," but they would be wrong. "
i can't fully engage with the arguements since i live in ireland and don't know much about the american education system,but in the irish education system a 15 year old would know that this is an unacceptable way of starting an arguement...
its gets worse-as mentioned,spurious economic generalisations are made,and no effort is made to back up arguements with evidence...
referring to someone quoted as an idiot is not a way to express any arguement unless you are writing for a tabloid newspaper...

someone said this is not meant to be a thesis in its defence:this point is a fallacy worthy of the article itself...
there are plenty of people who are quite capable of explaining a complex arguement succinctly in an article length piece without resorting to the sort of childishness displayed in this one,if mr schoonmaker is incapable of doing so that does not put him beyond criticism
in general i trust twoplustwo as a publisher because i assume that someone who knows more about the topic at hand than me has written something intelligently and that the publishers know enough to filter out this sort of rubbish...

other than that i enjoyed the rest of the magazine,hopefully the rest of the issues will cut out sub-polemic schoolboy arguements....

[/ QUOTE ]

blah blah blah

I look forward to reading your article, which I assume will be in an upcoming issue and be gramatically and logically perfect.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

Before everyone got so very excited about what country they are or are not from, I also had a thought about the content of the article.

I too was dissapointed. I was attempting to descirbe the content of the article to my fiance the next day to reassure her of the innate goodness of me playing poker.

I remembered "ruthless meritocracy" and "american kids are losing their competitive edge because of liberals" Then i kind of blanked out and was left with a conclusion something like "We should teach kids to gamble so they will be more competitive later in life."

Maybe I too should go back to reread it. Anyways I also recall something about saying this article might be one of a few--or did I make that up with idle wishing?

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of my post was not to discuss Al's article.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well quite.

I expect you consider yourself to be a Christian as well? Maybe go read up on the Ten Commandments, you seem to have forgotten some of them. Then go look up the meaning of the word "hypocrite".

[ QUOTE ]



Is this a worldview that fits snuggly with your own?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should it? If you have anything of value to contribute to this discussion than post. Otherwise keep your poisonous "patriotism/ignorance" away from these boards and discuss the points raised about the article, if you can.