Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

You did. This was the best article on poker I have ever read. If you want to convince your family thatpoker is okay, email them a copy.

-Daver

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

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Over the long term poker may be a ruthless meritocracy, but its been demonstrated on this forum many times that the long term is incredibly long...too long I would suggest for it be a meritocracy in fact or appearance for the vast majority of players.
--Zetack

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Well expressed and on-the-nose . . . I think that poker has a lot going for it (not the least of which is emotional control in the face of Unfairness, i.e., bad beats) but as far as the meritocracy angle goes -- yeeks. No way. The long run is just a little too long.

IMHO a little bit too much of an Ayn-Randian rant on his part, but eh, whattya gonna do.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

So, whenever anyone on the Forum or Magazine refers to "we" they are not referring to Canadians, Europeans or other members of the world commnity, they are refrring to the "USA".

I thought the one of the big advantages of an internet magazine and forum, in line with poker rooms, is to create an international community? This article, while I accept that the larger portion of players and forum users are from the USA, is in a style, and uses examples, that refer to USA citizens only.

Quoting american companies (who the hell are "Fidelity"?) and other American examples does not help, talking about the article in terms of what it can do for the USA economy does not help. Do articles on the psychology of poker uniquely apply to the USA? As a regular user of the forum and player of internet poker I am in contact with non-USA people, and it is not an insignificant minority.

I would suggest that if the USA wants to become competitive again, it needs to start recognising the existence and validity of the rest of the world (i.e. the countries that are not the USA) and communicate accordingly. The rest of the world is not "just like" the USA, just because they have a MacDonalds. Articles in this magazine should go beyond national identities and boundaries, and I struggle to understand how this article was published with such a distorted viewpoint. Has the situation in the USA really got that bad? that you feel it is not worth talking about issues outside the USA? If I had penned an article making references to "Tony Benn" and the "Rover Plant outside Dagenham" would anyone outside the UK have a clue what I was talking about?

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

"I would suggest that if the USA wants to become competitive again, it needs to start recognising the existence and validity of the rest of the world"

Yeah, the USA is terribly uncompetitive with the rest of the world. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

We recognize the existance of the rest of the world, it's where we outsource all our unskilled jobs in order to maximize our profit and wealth. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

What a lame response.

You say with pointless sarcasm:

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Yeah, the USA is terribly uncompetitive with the rest of the world.

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And Al says in his article says:

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We must...recognize that we are losing the world's most important competition, and do whatever it takes to start winning again.

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So are you agreeing or disagreeing with Al? because it sure as hell looks like you are not agreeing. You perhaps belong to the group of Governmental hacks who believe that a huge balance of payments defecit is sustainable... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I am still not sure what the point of your post is, is to demonstrate you have your head buried in the sand? or is to disagree with Al? Or is it post-party alcohol induced bravado?

The fact remains, this forum and magazine are read by people across the world, and I am stunned that anyone would write such an insular and blinkered article. If you want to demonstrate that you care not what the rest of the world thinks and only want to read articles about the good ol' boys and Uncle Sam, then carry on as you are. How utterly disappointing.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

I disagree with Al's points about the economy, the national debt, and the trade deficit. I mentioned that in my first post in the thread.

"You perhaps belong to the group of Governmental hacks who believe that a huge balance of payments defecit is sustainable"

It is. The national debt is at a more than acceptible level.

"The fact remains, this forum and magazine are read by people across the world, and I am stunned that anyone would write such an insular and blinkered article. If you want to demonstrate that you care not what the rest of the world thinks and only want to read articles about the good ol' boys and Uncle Sam, then carry on as you are. How utterly disappointing."

Sorry, but Al lives in America and that's his experience. While I'm sure that people all over the world read this site, I doubt it's much of a stretch to estimate that more than 95% are American. Besides, what do you expect him to use as his reference? Somewhere he's unfamiliar with? If you had an internet magazine with 95% English readers, I'd have to be pretty out of line to come and demand that you cater specifically to the non-English readers.

Perhaps if people like you got over your inferiority complex, you'd be a lot happier. Al has some bad examples and incorrect conclusions in the article, but using America as his frame of reference is a non-issue.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

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I I have heard these horror stories. From removing dodgeball because it is too competitive. To teachers being approached to raise grades because the child has "low self esteem." "No child left behind" removing subjects such as history from school.

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A student a few years ago was heart playing dodgeball, and schools aren't allowed to play it. There are ways around it. I know local schools play "medic" When someone is hit with the ball they are out until the medic touches them and they are back in.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

i'm sorry but this is an appallingly written article...
for a publisher with such a good reputation,i cannot believe twoplustwo published an arguement that starts with the sentence "Many people would say, "No," but they would be wrong. "
i can't fully engage with the arguements since i live in ireland and don't know much about the american education system,but in the irish education system a 15 year old would know that this is an unacceptable way of starting an arguement...
its gets worse-as mentioned,spurious economic generalisations are made,and no effort is made to back up arguements with evidence...
referring to someone quoted as an idiot is not a way to express any arguement unless you are writing for a tabloid newspaper...

someone said this is not meant to be a thesis in its defence:this point is a fallacy worthy of the article itself...
there are plenty of people who are quite capable of explaining a complex arguement succinctly in an article length piece without resorting to the sort of childishness displayed in this one,if mr schoonmaker is incapable of doing so that does not put him beyond criticism
in general i trust twoplustwo as a publisher because i assume that someone who knows more about the topic at hand than me has written something intelligently and that the publishers know enough to filter out this sort of rubbish...

other than that i enjoyed the rest of the magazine,hopefully the rest of the issues will cut out sub-polemic schoolboy arguements....

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

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It is. The national debt is at a more than acceptible level.

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It would be interesting if you could be bothered to explain why and how passing billions of dollars to other economies is "sustainable". If your account is running in the red, your business will go bust. National economies clearly work to different rules, but the basic premise must be the same. But fine, if you are happy to believe this then you can do so, it just might be better to explain your reasoning on something which goes directly against common sense.

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Sorry, but Al lives in America and that's his experience.

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Please, are you really that ignorant? Al is an educated professional, not a redneck just in from hoeing his fields. You have television in the USA, right? You have an education system that deals with non-US issues, no? This tired old line of "he lives in the USA, so he knows nothing else" is just about the saddest response imaginable, and unfortunately so very typical of the arrogance and dismissiveness of your country today. I would expect any academic to be able to comfortably write an article that made non-geographical references, or at the very least to provide sufficient detail of the used references so that anyone reading the article was aware of their relevance.

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I doubt it's much of a stretch to estimate that more than 95% are American

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It is always good to back up your claims with statistics, so I am assuming you are guessing. From the posters in the SH forum I would say that a significant minority are non-USA. But the real question is, do you only want to write for USA poker players? If so, then please say so. This is hilarious, considering that not one of the poker rooms acutally runs its business from your country, or is this more "outsourcing low-skilled work"? No-one has said anything about writing in other languages, but that is, in fact a very good idea, if you are interested in a global market. Translation does not cost much, I suggest starting with French and Spanish and consider Japanese (who love to gamble).

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Perhaps if people like you got over your inferiority complex, you'd be a lot happier.

[/ QUOTE ]

How very sad. This is exactly the kind of pompous attitude you accuse the British of having. I have no inferiority complex with the USA, that idea only exists in your superiority complex. I would imagine that that the very huge majority of Europeans much prefer to live here than the USA, your so-called higher living standards (if we can call plastic food, polluted cities and super-high crime/murder rate "higher-standards"). If you really beleive others are jealous, then I suggest it is you that needs to sort your head out and stop using lame excuses for your own arrogance and ignorance. Can you imagine what people over here think of your schools that try to ban "evolution" in biology classes? or the utterly inhumane death sentence (which fails in its aim of reducing violent crime)? or your pitiful Social Security system? your two-tier health care system that condemns vast swathes of your population to effectively no-health care? No probably not, but you just might get the inkling that there is more to life and its enjoyment that the material luxuries you so obviously covet. Culture being one of them. Jealous? Inferior? Grow up.

Re: Is Poker Socially Useful?: Part I by Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D.
 

"It would be interesting if you could be bothered to explain why and how passing billions of dollars to other economies is "sustainable". If your account is running in the red, your business will go bust. National economies clearly work to different rules, but the basic premise must be the same."

No, it's not. Businesses of all types operate with constant debt. It's a good thing, not a bad one. Any basic college business course goes over this.

Regarding Al, just because something is published on the internet doesn't mean one is responsible for making it accesible or relevant the the entire friggin planet. Get over yourself.

As for the rest of your post - it's pretty amusing. Are you trying to convince yourself? Unlike you who seem dying for us to acknowledge the validity of other countries' values and systems, we don't give a rats ass if you think ours is valid or not. Cheers.