Re: Moral Equivalency.
 

Your arguments might have more validity in just the abstract or in another context. However, right now we are in the aftermath of a direct attack. Therefore in this context to raise an issue such as


." If (a) the U.S. facilitated or committed terrorism and (b) it's legal process failed to inflict suitable punishment on those responsible, should foreign governments as a matter of principle accept the result or do they have at least the moral right to use military force to inflict punishment"


Is to lend aid and comfort to the enemies of civilization and not just an academic exercise.

Re: You\'re so deluded it\'s sad
 

It's interesting that you know so much about me from a single post. You assume I am deluded, but the issue isn't me but your mushy view of the world that can't identify evil when it literally hits you in the face

Re: Deluded?
 

I was replying to Gil. And I probably should cool down a little. But this "we're the good guys and they are the evil enemy" view really angers me. But then, of course, a simple view of the world probably does make you feel better. Opening your eyes to you own, your friends, your familys, and your neighbors evil sides, and your "enemies" good sides, sure ain't easy. But you'll have to to have a chance of stoping this cycle of violence. And it sure ain't a matter of civilization vs. non-civilization. There is too much shit going on in the "civilized" world.

Re: Deluded?
 

To lighten it up a bit and still make the point Harry Anderson once said


"It's important to have an open mind but not one so open that your brains rattle around."


Refusing to see that there is black and white is as bad as only seeing black and white.

Re: The Compleat Leaper
 

Come on we are to have a "dialogue"? Certainly things are past that stage.

Re: You\'re so deluded it\'s sad
 

Maybe I was a bit harsh. But your clear-cut black-and-white view of the world cannot stand uncontradicted. This kind of simplistic view are the source of much wrongdoing.

National dialogue??!!
 

Thousands dead and you want to talk about it??


My reference to using nukes was sarcastic, but if they were to be used I couldn't think of a better target than Bin Laden.


Dialogue??


I don't think you get it. Thousands dead and dialogue?


Colin Powell called it an attack upon civilization. This is 100% accurate. Definitive action is mandatory. Bin Laden GOES!!! His lieutenants, protectors, supporters ALL GO!! They die and terrorism dies with them.


What in the world are you talking about? Geez!!!!!!!!!


'Was it the "bad" Jake who wrote above: "The completeness of the procedure is foremost, the precision secondary and coincidental. I want no one left alive to nurture, harbor or finance the terrorists. I want no one left alive to perform the terror."'


I stand by this absolutely. Do you realize that in the last 24 hours there has been at least one more attempt by these people to enter flights leaving New York? For these reason the New York airports are again closed.


Fortunately the choice isn't yours. I just hope we can find them all and then kill them all. And sooner is much, much better than latter. You are aware that we may be committing ground troops to accomplish this. It is THAT important. You can chose death for yourself, Buster, but not for the rest of us.

Re: Moral Equivalency.
 

We need "academic exercises" to stop us from just emotionally charging ahead with vengeance. It's the "civilized" way.

Re: You\'re so deluded it\'s sad
 

Since you are so quick to assume my view is black/white and can't seem to grasp my point maybe it is you who suffers from being too dogmatic.

Re: Some Questions
 

Certainly one can understand the "hysterical" resonses to the attacks. We are all in a state of numbed shock. It is a natural first reaction to want to stike out in revenge.


But you bring up a number of good points about the necessity for thinking as well as action. During the 1990s President Clinton blamed Bin Laden for almost all terrorist activity in the world. Most terrorism experts felt Bin Laden could not possibly have been responsible for everything that the administration blamed on him.


There's no question, in my mind, that the attacks were indeed an act of war and retaliation is called for. But I want my government to make sure that they're retaliating against the correct people and I don't want my government to adopt the moral standards (or I should say the immoral standards) or the terrorists. The Europeans were correct in asking us to think as well as act.


It is beyond doubt that one of the reasons we are the target for terrrorists is our support for state sponsored terrorism in many places around the world and our support for many groups who we didn't know enought about. Of particular interest now is our support for the rebels in Afghanistan during the 1980s. We gave stinger missiles to people without caring about what kind of people they were; that they were anticommunist was enough for us. From these people emerged the Taliban, who harbor Bin Laden.


A military response should be accompanied by a reassessment of our place in the world and our policies. But of course it will not be. We will go forward convinced ofour righteousness: good vs. evil with god on our side. The same attitude the terrorists take. No room for gray areas.


Please do not misunderstand: there is no room for gray in terms of what happened Tuesday. But I hope we ask not only who did it by why they did it and see the big picture. We need to not only eliminatge the terrorists, but to not participate in terrorist activities ourselves.