Two hands for review: QQ and 44 (Party 2/4)

[nepenthe]

Should I fold QQ on the turn?

It's heads-up. I have Q /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif in EP and open-raise. Folded to MP who 3-bets. No particular reads on him as of yet. Folded around to me and I cap. (?)

Flop: J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet out. MP raises. I 3-bet. MP calls.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet. MP raises. I call.

River: some offsuit rag.

I c/c.

----------------------------------------------------------

I have 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP and limp after 1 limper. One more LP limper, then Button raises. SB folds, BB calls. Everyone else calls. 5 to the flop.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Surprisingly it's checked around.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked around to Button who pauses for a sec and bets. Folded to me, I raise. At this point I firmly placed the button on AK or similar and I didn't think anyone else had anything. Thought this would be a good time to represent a turned 3oak.

Comments on both plays appreciated.

[chesspain]

The specific situation in hand 1 is discussed in HEFAP, where the authors recommend calling the three-bet preflop and then, if HU, checkcalling down (assuming an A doesn't fall). This allows you to win the most when you are ahead and lose the least when you are behind.

By three-betting the flop, and then betting the turn, you pretty much have to fold to the raise, unless you think your opponent is tricky enough to play this aggressively with AK/JJ. I assume you were shown a better hand at the river.

However, I prefer to keep my variance lower by playing the way suggested in HEFAP.

[adanthar]

Hand 1: If the flop was 532, I'd 3 bet without hesitation. On this flop, you're currently ahead of exactly two hands (99 and AKs, *maybe* overplayed AQ-AJs) and one of those is a favorite to win. It's probably close between 3 betting and calling, but if I 3 bet I'm gonna have to call a cap and fold on the turn, which I hate, so I call down from there. Certainly, I think I'm behind enough to fold queens once I'm raised on the turn (although I sometimes don't. This is a leak, though.)

Hand 2: Button either has AK, weak jacks or tens or a full house. If you're 3 bet this is a fold. If not, do you plan on betting a blank river?

[nepenthe]

In Hand 1 he had KK and HHIG. I do think going into check/call mode from the get-go isn't that bad and do play this way occasionally with smaller pp's. Having played it the way I did, I knew a turn fold was in order but sometimes it's hard to let it go in the heat of the moment.

In Hand 2, everyone instamucked and my 44 is good. Being 2/4 Party and all, obviously nobody had any pair. If the Button had called my turn check/raise though and it was HU, I'm betting the river close to 100% of the time on a blank. It doesn't really matter if I check because by that point, my hand is most likely good against his AK/AJ/etc, but I want to maintain the illusion of my 3oak and would prefer that he fold right there and not have to show my hand.

BTW, I think there is close to no way Button has JJ or lower PP in this situation, and miss a chance to bet on the flop when checked to him. A set is a definite possibility if he is tricky, however, and I was fully prepared to fold to a 3-bet on the turn.

[GuyOnTilt]

The specific situation in hand 1 is discussed in HEFAP, where the authors recommend calling the three-bet preflop and then, if HU, checkcalling down (assuming an A doesn't fall). This allows you to win the most when you are ahead and lose the least when you are behind.

I no longer agree with this HPFAP line. The more I play, the more I'm convinced you're giving up value by taking this line. I don't like hero's 3-bet on the flop though. I call it and bet the turn and call down a raise.

GoT

PS. I'm drunk. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Checked around to Button who pauses for a sec and bets. Folded to me, I raise. At this point I firmly placed the button on AK or similar and I didn't think anyone else had anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponent is holding AK, he still has 14 outs against you. I don't think this pot is big enough to go after it like you did. If it was larger, a stab like this is undoubtedly a solid attempt.

Haupt_234

[Michael Davis]

Hand #1- Yeah, I think you can fold on the turn, but others will crucify you because your opponent might have AJ or somesuch overplayed nonsense.

Hand #2- I think your raise is good, but just betting your hand after it got checked around is a whole lot better. Frankly, I think betting the flop would be a good play.

-Michael

[Holm Fries]

Hand 1 - I call the flop raise and check/call it down. I can't fold an overpair playing Party 2/4 in this situation.

Hand 2 - I muck preflop.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2- I think your raise is good, but just betting your hand after it got checked around is a whole lot better. Frankly, I think betting the flop would be a good play.


[/ QUOTE ]

With 4 players in the pot and the preflop raiser still to act, how would betting out an underpair to every card on the board be a good play? Hero is also in second position and has two to act behgind him. Given the fact that the typical player checks to the preflop raiser a good amount of the time (which increases their likliehood of a decent holding), I think this is a horrible bet.

Haupt_234