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View Full Version : too much credit? (hand summary + long analysis)


01-24-2002, 03:33 PM
OK, the last hand I posted, the hand reading was trivial, so I slowplayed a set. This hand I used a similar strategy, though th circumstances are very different. This may fall under the category of "giving opponents too much credit".


Tough online game. UTG limps (not a super tough player). I raise in cutoff with KdKs. BB calls, UTG calls.


Flop is TcTsQc. BB bets, UTG raises. I call.


I see little reason to 3 bet here. I also think it's unlikely either player is drawing, as the chances of winning with a bet are minimal, and the chances of a strong hand being out are large.

If I 3 bet, what to do If someoen plays back at me?


Turn is 2h. BB checks. UTG bets, I call, BB calls.


This was a tough decision. I read UTG for a Q with a kicker K or smaller. If I raise this player, he may now fold, or fold if I bet the river also. The BB worries me. He most likely has a Q also, but could have a ten. If I raise here, he may not call with a queen, and he may not reraise with a ten. If I raise and knock out a Q, I have prevented 3 outs from continuing if it's AQ, and nothing if it's QK or QJ. My raise may make UTG drop a Q, since it is unlikely his kicker is an ace. I call to get an overcall, even though I know I have the bettor beat.


River is 4d. Checked to me, I bet, both call. (This means that I win, of course.)


For the record, BB had AQ, UTG had KQ.


Questions:


Is the BB going to go to a showdown thru anything? Will UTG do the same? If so, should my concern of a ten being out reduce my aggression?


Here is my analysis of the turn, please critique:


UTG almost cretainly has a Qx. This is my read, which I gave 90% confidence to once the turn came. The rest of the time, I gave him a ten.


If I raise the turn and BB folds, will UTG call or fold with a Q?

I thought it was 60/40 call/fold. A ten 3 bets 70%, waits for the river or wimps out 30%.


If I raise the turn and the BB calls cold, does UTG call also with a Q? I thought it was 70/30 fold/call. This nets me 2/3 bets on the turn, and 1/2 on the river.


If I raise the turn, does BB call with Qx? I put this at 20%. If BB has AQ, I put this at 80%.


If BB has AQ, does he call the river after cold calling the turn - again, 80% I thought.


If I call the river and they check to me, would they both call? I put this at 80%.


I was hoping that the BB had Qx, and I could get them each to keep playing and pay off their one outers. If the BB has AQ, he gets 3 outs he might not get if I raise the turn. But he will also call on the river, so in some cases he is paying 2 bets for the 3 outs, so I want him in.


As for UTG, it would be fabulous to keep him around. This was another reason to not raise the turn - I may miss out on his river call. So it might be costing me 4 out to get 3 bets from these players. This is too high a price to knock them out.


However, if I have grossly overestimated their hand reading, I may miss out on an extra turn bet from each of them if they both call me down. This is a possible scenario.


On the other hand, if I have grossly overestimated my hand- reading, I am likely against a ten, and passive play will save me a bet or 2.


Any comments appreciated.


Dan Z.

01-24-2002, 05:10 PM
I would rather raise the turn.


In this hand, I think it is OK if they fold. I don't like getting so fancy in evaluating my calls as a way to maximize value unless I am slowplaying a monster.


They are drawing to 4 outs, your raise gives them 10 or 11 to 1 on the call, which would be correct for them to do if you think your read is correct. This can be seen as another way of "value betting" but without having making them pay for that river card.


If you get check-raised on the turn, it is highly likely you are drawing 2 outs. There I think you would have to re-evaluate your read.


You might also bet the river if you so strongly believe in your read, and get 3 BB each on turn and river. However, I don't think checking it back is bad either.

01-24-2002, 05:39 PM
yer lucky a K didnt hit...youd have been in deep.


here is a vulunerable board, KJ is not out of possibilities, along with Axs, or other higher flush draws. on this board im capping the flop with KK.

then on the turn, if they check, id check behind then call or bet the river.

sometime youll start controlling the pots. this was a hand i wouldve tried alot more aggression earlier.


at least ya bet the river....


b