Playing top pair, mediocre kicker on a two-tone flop

[ilya]

I run into this type of situation frequently and often have a lot of trouble deciding how to play it. For example: six handed, I get a free play in the big blind with 9s8d. an MP has called and the SB has completed.
The flop comes 9h5s3s. SB checks. It's six-handed, blinds are at 25/50, 150 in the pot, and I have a little under 800. SB and MP both have about 1300.
What to do, what to do? Now if I had something like A9, so that I felt reasonably confident I had the best hand right now, I'd go ahead and bet 200-250 to shut out the flush draws and take the pot down right now.
But with a kicker like my 8, I am not really keen to put 25% of my stack out there for the calling. At the same time, I really don't want to let flush draws see the turn for free.
I bet 100 in this case and took down the pot, trying to represent something like medium/bottom pair + flush draw. I took it down, but it doesn't make me very happy to make weak bets like this...so if anybody has some advice/ideas...especially of a more general nature, i.e. on the general topic of playing top pair with an 'eh' kicker on a two-tone flop...i'd be really interested in hearing it/them.

thanks in advance

p.s. some different (imaginary) scenarios:

level 1, first hand. two callers, you have Kh6h in the SB and complete. the BB checks.
flop is Kd 4d 2c.
what's your play? how does it change depending on the number of callers?

level 5, 4-handed, big stack T3000, short stack T1000, medium stack T2200, Hero T1800.
you get Qh7c in the BB. the big stack calls UTG, button and SB fold. you check.
flop is Qd 2d 2s.
what's your play?
what if the flop is Qd Td 6c?
what if the flop is Qd 6d 2d?
what if the flop is Td 6d 2d and your holding is Th3d?

etc etc

food for thought i hope

[SumZero]

How good are the opponents you are playing against? I play the $5 SNGs so this may not work at all levels. I don't like bets smaller than the pot, so I tend to either check or bet the pot (or all-in if betting the pot would make me pot committed).

In this case I definitely bet the pot. That flop is a big blind flop all the way, and is unlikely to have hit the MP limper. I think the folding equity alone is worth the pot bet where I play as I think at least 2 out of 3 times it will be folded after my raise. Even if one of the players calls and has two overcard spades giving them lots of outs, it is still a coin toss with you only a slight 49% dog. If one of the players raises back over the top I fold. If they flat call, I push all in on any non-spade, non-ace. Sure you have to worry about 9 with a higher kicker, as MP may very well have A9 and limp, but given that you can see two nines I think the chances are slim, and if they do they may well put you on a flush draw and re-raise you all in to make you pay for your draw (less likely to flat call with TPTK with the 2 spades there). Even if both opponents flat call and you have something like MP with KsQs and sb A5 you still have about 35% pot equity so it was a value bet!

BTW I don't anyone put you on medium or bottom pair and the flush draw since only with top pair could you have the flush draw (and since you have the 9s no one else can have both a pair and the draw).

As to the PS:

I check top pair no kicker at level one when I'm first to act. If someone raises behind me a min-raise I'll probably stick around (and amazingly people do this a lot). If someone raises the pot, I'll fold. If there had been no limpers and it was just a battle of the blinds I bet the pot on this flop.

This one is harder without knowing the blinds. I probably bet the pot if the blinds are small, check raise all in if the blinds are medium, and go all in if the blinds are huge. But I play for 1st and am not afraid of coming 4th some of the time. Obviously I'd be much more happy with a 2 2 7 flop, but an XXY flop should usually be bet at. The Q62 flops I check and may call or fold to a raise depending on what my read is. The last one I bet the pot with top pair and the flush draw.

[ilya]

Thanks for your reply, SumZero.

I don't like betting less than the pot either. I hesitate in situations like the first one because the pot is large in relation to my stack. If the pot were 100 and my stack was 700+, I would definitely go ahead and make a strong bet. I'll probably overbet the pot, actually.

But with the pot about 1/4 of my stack...I'm still worried. That's because when my stack is big in relation to the pot, I bet 1.5-2x the pot in that situation, and I get called...I often don't bet out again on the turn. I just don't feel like I'll get called again by a hand I can beat, and I'm willing to take the chance that someone has stuck around with a flush draw despite my big flop bet. And I may give up the pot to a strong bet.
Getting back to the original scenario...I agree that if someone calls, it's not very likely that they have a higher nine. The real possibilities, it seems to me, are bottom/mid trips or flush draw. But I think at the $10 SnG level people often play any face, rag suited...many limpers or not.
So...there aren't too many cards that I'd be happy with on the turn. If an A, K, Q, or J comes, I don't know if I'm beaten or not. Certainly my all-in won't be called unless I am. For my opponent, there's now only one more card to make a flush with and a face card to worry about on top of that. If the third spade comes, I'm in no position to represent the flush.

In other words, I feel like I basically have just one chance to win this pot. And I'm not sure it's always a + Cash EV play to risk 25% of my stack to win 15% of my stack 2/3 times. That's probably too weak, huh.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop comes 9h5s3s...

I bet [2/3 pot] in this case and took down the pot, trying to represent something like medium/bottom pair + flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's impossible to have a flush draw and a pair other than top pair. A pair plus a flush draw is very strong, so I don't see why you would bet less with it.

It sounds like you really dislike the idea of betting less than the pot. Get over it! Sometimes it is the right thing to do. Someone with no draw (except an overcard or two) usually should fold to less than a 1/2 pot bet, particularly if there are players left to act afterwards.

With TPTK after I raised preflop, I prefer to bet slightly less than the pot if there is no draw. It's still wrong to call with few outs if I won't pay off when the draw hits. Then, when I do the same thing after I miss the flop, it costs less for me to fold to a check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Now if I had something like A9, so that I felt reasonably confident I had the best hand right now, I'd go ahead and bet 200-250 to shut out the flush draws and take the pot down right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you had TPTK, there are a lot of better hands that could be held by the limper or the SB. Overbetting the pot may protect you against someone who has a baby flush draw, but a flush draw and two overcards may push (I might push with Ks Js). So might a set, or a straight-flush draw. Are you going to call if someone raises? If not, maybe you shouldn't overbet.

[Sam T.]

As your post shows, this is a delicate situation, which makes my approach fairly simple. Unless I am short-stacked, I avoid it. Often the pot is still small, so winning it won't make my tournament, and I'm putting a pretty big chunk of my stack at risk. Also, I've come to the conclusion that at this point in my playing career I'm not good enough to make the right decision on a regular basis. The last thing I want is to put 20-30% of my chips in the pot with a mediocre hand and then watch an Ace come out on the turn.