Frontloading - An Ethics Question

[The Dude]

I found myself in an interesting situation last night at a local cardroom. I was sitting in seat 1 with my chin resting on my pyramid of chips. As the dealer would come around to the blinds, he would lift up his arms to pitch over the chips, making it easy for me to see the cards being dealt to the players in the blinds. At that point, I had never considered the ethical implications of "front loading" in poker. (I am 100% okay with it in blackjack.)

I lifted my head off my chips and didn't put myself in a position to frontload the rest of that dealer's time, because I was a bit uncomfortable. Since then, I have put much thought into the ethical implications surrounding the issue. I vaguely remembered Mason Malmuth writing something about it, and I found an essay in Poker Essays I titled "Front Loading, Anyone?" briefly addressing the issue. In it, he states (and I hope Mason doesn't mind me quoting this):
A point I want to make is that front loading definately is not cheating. Although I feel it is somewhat unethical, this information is available to all players at the table. Consequently, players who are able to front load are not doing anything wrong; it is the cardroom's responsibility to make sure its dealers follow proper procedure.

As I thought more about the situation, a few points came to mind:
1) There are times when a player seated next to me is showing me their hole cards, and I often don't have any conflict in continuing to view their cards. How many times I tell the player they are exposing their hole cards depends on the type of player (0 if they are a knowledgable, regular player - 1 or 2 times if they are a newbie - every time if they are elderly with poor eyesight and must hold up their cards to see them). In what ways is front loading the same or different from this?
2) It is a player's responsibility to protect their hand. If someone is able to see my hole cards because of how the dealer is pitching them to me, but yet I continue to allow the dealer to do so, it is heavily my fault people can see my cards. I would not feel cheated if someone front loaded me - I would feel dumb for letting it happen.
3) It feels unethical. My gut reaction (which I try to trust in ethical dilemmas) was that it just smelled foul. And this has been true for most poker players I have asked about front loading.

There are many other points to consider, and I hope they come out in discussion.

This is significant, because I believe that knowing just 1 or 2 hole cards per hand could easily add 1/2+ BBs to your hourly rate. There is no doubt this information is significantly valuable.

So I guess my real question is what are your guys' thought on the ethics of front loading at the poker table?

[FoxRiverPlayer]

I agree with most of what you said, but I feel that players should never be punished for a dealer's sloppiness. The dealer could be exposing a player's cards in a way such that the player would never see it from their angle. So this is something I would speak up about (anyway it could happen to me too next time I'm in that seat with that dealer).

Similarly, I always hate dealer sloppiness to affect the showdown. For instance, hands where one party has the high hand but apparently thinks they have lost, yet turns their cards up anyway in a sort of "I lost but I'll show anyway" motion. The dealer should look at both hands, and declare the winner. But sometimes you get bad dealers who can't seem to tell which is the high hand, and start to push the pot to the loser. Then the player who thinks he has lost starts to really muck his hand--that's when I'm stepping in. He has the winning hand and showed it, it shouldn't matter if neither he nor the dealer realizes it as the winner. Of course if he actually mucked the winner before it was seen, that's his own problem. And other players shouldn't be talking about what hands might win, etc. before the showdown. But nobody should lose a hand because of the dealer not doing his/her job.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I vaguely remembered Mason Malmuth writing something about it, and I found an essay in Poker Essays I titled "Front Loading, Anyone?" briefly addressing the issue. In it, he states (and I hope Mason doesn't mind me quoting this):
A point I want to make is that front loading definately is not cheating. Although I feel it is somewhat unethical, this information is available to all players at the table. Consequently, players who are able to front load are not doing anything wrong; it is the cardroom's responsibility to make sure its dealers follow proper procedure.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mason is wrong about this, since a player may not be in position to see the frontloading, which means he will neither be able to take advantage of it nor see that others can possibly see his cards.

Furthermore, say a player sees the improper dealing, politely asks the dealer to keep the deck pointed down, yet continues to see frontloading occur. Other than to call over the floor (which may or may not accomplish anything), how is a player supposed to protect himself, especially when authorities like Mason think there is nothing wrong with this type of angleshooting?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi chesspain:

One of the reasons we published The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook was to try to correct problems like this. Incompetent poker dealing has been an industry wide problem for as long as I can remember.

Fortunately, the book has had an impact (we think) and since it came out the quality of dealers has been improving even though it still has a way to go. However, the trend has been reversed this past year with the addition of so many new dealers reflecting the growth in poker.

Part of the solution in these cases is to talk to the poker room manager and explain the problem to them. If you're lucky they will address it.

Best wishes,
Mason

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
...I feel that players should never be punished for a dealer's sloppiness.

[/ QUOTE ]
How 'bout for other players' sloppiness? Last week I was sitting across from a player who would pick up his cards to muck them, and often expose his bottom hole card to the players across from him. When I changed seats later in the session, I could no longer see his exposed card, and so I discretely pointed out to him that players might be abe to see his cards, and he stopped doing this. Is this situation any different?

Isn't it always a player's responsibility to make sure that his hand and other players' hands are protected?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason is wrong about this, since a player may not be in position to see the frontloading, which means he will neither be able to take advantage of it nor see that others can possibly see his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're playing a 5-handed game with Sklansky, Clarkmeister, Malmuth, and Ray Zee, do you feel the same way? Are these players not experienced enought that should be 100% accountable for protecting their hand in all ways possible?

That sitiuation feels a lot different to me than the situation I was in the other night.

What game conditions (if any) change things for you?

Mason, do you see these situations as different?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're playing a 5-handed game with Sklansky, Clarkmeister, Malmuth, and Ray Zee, do you feel the same way?

[/ QUOTE ]

He already stated that when playing against the elderly, he will inform them that he can see their cards.

Just kidding! Please don't ban me /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[The Dude]

lol

[The Dude]

What, no other takers? Clarmeister, Dynasty, the Vegas Crew, El Diablo, Andyfox, J.A., GoT, nobody? Thoughts on when - if ever - front loading is okay?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mason is wrong about this, since a player may not be in position to see the frontloading, which means he will neither be able to take advantage of it nor see that others can possibly see his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're playing a 5-handed game with Sklansky, Clarkmeister, Malmuth, and Ray Zee, do you feel the same way? Are these players not experienced enought that should be 100% accountable for protecting their hand in all ways possible?



[/ QUOTE ]

If others aren't in a position to see the frontloading, then they can't take advantage of it or try to prevent it, regardless of how well they play poker. Or are you asking if angleshooting is O.K. when you are a huge underdog in a game?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
What, no other takers? Clarmeister, Dynasty, the Vegas Crew, El Diablo, Andyfox, J.A., GoT, nobody? Thoughts on when - if ever - front loading is okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude,

Why are you still looking for permission to do something that is ethically questionable? If you want to be an angleshooter, then be an angleshooter. Personally, I don't care if all of the above say that it is O.K. take advantage of frontloading--it's not!

[brick]

I agree chesspain.
When I go to the casino I expect a fair game.
Each player should do your part to ensure the game is fair because it provides an enviornment where people feel safe spending their hard earned money. (~$10 per hour playing 3-6)
So to maintain the integrity of the game if you notice that the situation is not legit then you should tell the dealer.

This includes telling them about marked cards and frontloading.

Protecting your hand is part of the game and so I really like Dude's method above.