A Rule

[sthief09]

I think it's safe to say that it's never correct to limp with AJs, KQs, AKo (you can make a good case for limp-reraising AKs, so I'm not including that), or AQ (in LL games).

anyone agree?

I'm just curious why there's so many posts where people limp with AK. I figure if we all agree on a rule, then people will stop doing that.

[butters]

Devil's advocate - AJs. This hand doesn't fear overcards and does well multiway. Raising it, especially from early position limits the field and opens you up to a reraise from AK, AQ. I think a case can be made for limping with this hand early in.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Devil's advocate - AJs. This hand doesn't fear overcards and does well multiway. Raising it, especially from early position limits the field and opens you up to a reraise from AK, AQ. I think a case can be made for limping with this hand early in.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJs in EP should be automatic. in a loose game you'll get called and get multiway action in a big pot. in a tight game, it's worth raising to get it heads up on the flop.

you're holding an A in your hand, and not raising because you fear AK or AQ is out there. well, if you're raising preflop won't you get a better idea if AK or AQ is out? if you just limp AK and AQ won't just go away. they'll raise anyway. by your logic, you should fold it because AK and AQ might be out there.

there's 1225 possible hands left in the deck. 36 are AK,AQ,AA,KK,QQ,JJ, which means they make up ~3% of all hands. there's 9 people to act behind you. is it really worth not raising this hand because you fear one of 9 people will have a 33-1 underdog hand? you're in good or decent shape against every other hand.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising it, especially from early position limits the field and opens you up to a reraise from AK, AQ. I think a case can be made for limping with this hand early in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll almost always get 3-bet by AA/KK, but that's a bad reason to limp with AK.

[butters]

[ QUOTE ]
if you just limp AK and AQ won't just go away. they'll raise anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But if I'm going to be dominated, I'd like a few more callers in there with me to give me some odds to my straight or flush draws.

AJs is going to be the best hand going in the majority of the time (and I raise it, fwiw.) Of the hands you listed, I think this is the hand where *always* raise preflop might be debatable.

[sthief09]

I think this is the hand where *always* raise preflop might be debatable.

you think wrong /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

AJs > KQs

[elindauer]

Many players will play Ax offsuit, Kx, any 2 suited, etc, for one bet but not two. When these players are at your table, limping with all of these hands is perfectly reasonable.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
AJs is going to be the best hand going in the majority of the time (and I raise it, fwiw.) Of the hands you listed, I think this is the hand where *always* raise preflop might be debatable.


[/ QUOTE ]

The first sentence is a good argument for always putting in the first raise with AJs. Concerns about hand domination are a good reason not to call a raise with AJs without coldcallers between you and the raiser.

[butters]

[ QUOTE ]
AJs > KQs

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't argue with that one /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

One reason KQs is a raise is because too many people will limp with Ax. I want those hands out preflop if I'm holding KQs.

AJs - not the same problem. In fact, I want those hands in.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I agree with all but KQs in EP. To many any Arag players in LL that never fold to matter what the pressure if they hit an A on the flop. I like to raise from EP on loose tables with a hand that could be ahead rather then a hand thats always behind.

MarkV.

[butters]

Raise it up preflop so they can't limp in cheap with Ax.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with all but KQs in EP. To many any Arag players in LL that never fold to matter what the pressure if they hit an A on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So don't try to bully a calling station with KQs and an A-high board. This has everything to do with your postflop play and little to do with pushing your preflop edges and punishing limpers/coldcallers who play trash.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Your not raising enough if these are the table conditions or you need to find a new table. /images/graemlins/smile.gif You want a table where they will call 2 cold with hands like Ax and Kx and any 2 suited.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[Joe Tall]

AJs. This hand doesn't fear overcards and does well multiway. Raising it, especially from early position limits the field and opens you up to a reraise from AK, AQ. I think a case can be made for limping with this hand early in.

Fearing hands like AK, AQ when you hold AJs is silly. AJs is an automatic raise.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MVicuna]

Hi,

KQs doesn't have a preflop edge vs Ax which is part of my point. So the A rag hands are not charging YOU when you limp and they limp after you.

If an EP raise gets 3-4 callers I think raising with KQs isn't such a hot idea. If you get 1-2 I think its good or if you get 5+.

I raise KQs from MP and LP every time, just not from EP every time.

MarkV.

[sthief09]

KQs doesn't have a preflop edge vs Ax which is part of my point. So the A rag hands are not charging YOU when you limp and they limp after you.

If an EP raise gets 3-4 callers I think raising with KQs isn't such a hot idea. If you get 1-2 I think its good or if you get 5+.

you're very confused

KQs has an enormous PF edge against Ax in LL games. that's because you aren't seeing the flop headsup. KQs is a great volume hand and a great shorthanded hand. getting 3-4 callers with KQs is great for me. I don't understand why it's not good for you.

I'm amazed how many people are fighting me on something that should be a given. I'm glad I started this thread.

[butters]

How far down can you apply the same principle? A10s, A9s, etc? At what x does Axs become a limp and not a raise? (assuming same table conditions where it is always correct to raise AJs as stipulated in the original post).

[sthief09]

AJs- always raise
ATs- almost always raise (actually "always raise" might be applicable here)
A9s- raise often but far from always
A8s and lower- only open raise or raise after a bunch of limpers

[lil']

I figure if we all agree on a rule, then people will stop doing that.
Yeah, right.

[tech]

In general, yes. But I tend to buy into the Feeney/Sklansky philosophy that anything in poker that you do habitually (without thinking) is incorrect.

I'm sure one could construct a scenario where it would be correct to limp with these. I agree that it would be a rare case though.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, yes. But I tend to buy into the Feeney/Sklansky philosophy that anything in poker that you do habitually (without thinking) is incorrect.

I'm sure one could construct a scenario where it would be correct to limp with these. I agree that it would be a rare case though.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with not making rules. I hate rules. but there's at least one post a day where someone limps in with one of these hands. people just don't realize how good they are.

I honestly can't think of a scenario in a LL game where it would be right to limp with these hands, except if there's a guy to your right that limps only with AA-JJ, AK, AQ, and raises everything else.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Fearing hands like AK, AQ when you hold AJs is silly. AJs is an automatic raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hardly ever raise AJ suited or unsuited from early position, but not because I'm afraid of AK or AQ, because, of course, those hands aren't always out there. The reason I don't like raising with AJ is because it tends to limit the field to aces that are better than yours. For example, the hands that you want to play like AT and A6s won't call a raise cold. AK and AQ will still play though and usually reraise you. In late position though, those hands have already limped in, so I definitely raise. I feel the same way about KQs.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
honestly can't think of a scenario in a LL game where it would be right to limp with these hands, except if there's a guy to your right that limps only with AA-JJ, AK, AQ, and raises everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's one. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Here's another that comes to mind. I was in a game one day with a guy to my left who would raise pretty much any two if there was no raise in front of him. Not many people were cold-calling at that table. I never got the cards in a spot that I thought it would work, but I would have considered limping with a big hand in that spot as sort of a reverse-isolation play.

[lil']

You not playing with enough stupid people. Find more stupid people to play with. They'll call with anything!

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Your not raising enough if these are the table conditions or you need to find a new table. /images/graemlins/smile.gif You want a table where they will call 2 cold with hands like Ax and Kx and any 2 suited.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't get it. It's not a question of table selection. The point is, making a rule that "you should always raise these hands" is wrong. If you want to modify the rule to be "you should always raise these hands when the table conditions are such that you should raise these hands", then I'll certainly agree.

-Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly can't think of a scenario in a LL game where it would be right to limp with these hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it your opinion then that the loose games section of HEFAP is predominantly bad advice?

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I must be confused somewhere or something. I see Arag suited or not is ahead of KQs when I enter it into pokerstove. When doing the missed over card tango on the river I'm losing to Ax more often then I'm winning off KJ when I *raised* in EP.

I'm not saying don't raise it in other seats, I'm just saying certain table conditions that are quite frequent at party make KQs a hand I won't open raise in EP. That being a 10 handed semi-loose game where you get 2-4 callers to an EP raise. These tables seem to be loose but not random preflop and tight post flop. I don't like raising in this situation. I like to raise with KQs in a tight preflop and tighter post flop and loose/random preflop and loose post flop.

We are probably talking a thin edge here and when its a thin edge, I like to have it against 5+ players rather then 2-4 players.

I won't disagree with you that KQs is a raisable hand in EP, but I wont agree 100%. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

MarkV.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I was saying in a round about way, what you said here. If you find the trash hands are folding when you raise with KQs start raising with more hands and go look for a new table. Where hands like KQs get paid off by the junk and your not just winning tiny pots.

MarkV.

[sthief09]

then you're doing sims of headsup pots. any ace beats any king headsup. but you're playing a 10 handed game.

for KQs vs A5s vs 3 random hands, KQs wins about 30% of the time and A5s wins 22%

maybe I haven't made this clear: you want people cold-calling your raises when you're holding KQs or AJs, or AA, or even JJ. that's because they're cold calling with worse hands.


and now you're wsaying the reason to not raise is beause A5s is going to cold call a raise, then call on all 3 streets unimproved?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
honestly can't think of a scenario in a LL game where it would be right to limp with these hands, except if there's a guy to your right that limps only with AA-JJ, AK, AQ, and raises everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's one. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Here's another that comes to mind. I was in a game one day with a guy to my left who would raise pretty much any two if there was no raise in front of him. Not many people were cold-calling at that table. I never got the cards in a spot that I thought it would work, but I would have considered limping with a big hand in that spot as sort of a reverse-isolation play.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK fair enough... those hands should all be raised 100% of the time in unraised pots if there aren't any notably "unique" players at your table, like the one you describe. weird players change things, but that's why they're weird. you don't play against people like that that often.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly can't think of a scenario in a LL game where it would be right to limp with these hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it your opinion then that the loose games section of HEFAP is predominantly bad advice?

[/ QUOTE ]


are you aware that the loose games section of HPFAP doesn't pertain to loose LL games? it pertains to loose middle limit games, like 30/60 and 40/80.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fearing hands like AK, AQ when you hold AJs is silly. AJs is an automatic raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hardly ever raise AJ suited or unsuited from early position, but not because I'm afraid of AK or AQ, because, of course, those hands aren't always out there. The reason I don't like raising with AJ is because it tends to limit the field to aces that are better than yours. For example, the hands that you want to play like AT and A6s won't call a raise cold. AK and AQ will still play though and usually reraise you. In late position though, those hands have already limped in, so I definitely raise. I feel the same way about KQs.

[/ QUOTE ]


don't you play 15/30 though?

I'm referring to low limit games. you'll be hard pressed to find a LL game where people aren't cold calling with ATo or A6s

[BottlesOf]

Well talk to me about KQs and AJs later on in a raised pot. How about raised multiway. Can't we come up with scenarios where 3-betting, cold-calling and folding are appropriate?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
are you aware that the loose games section of HPFAP doesn't pertain to loose LL games? it pertains to loose middle limit games, like 30/60 and 40/80.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's absurd. This section is about "very good... loose, passive game where many people see the flop and then play poorly after that". How do you conclude that the advice only applies to a 40/80 game? Sounds like a pretty good description of a typical low limit game to me.

They continue to say that you should adjust by "frequently keeping it to one bet preflop, more than (sthief) thinks you should". They specifically mention AQ.

So... do you think the authors are mistaken? Or is it possible that it's incorrect to always raise these hands?


-Eric

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Well talk to me about KQs and AJs later on in a raised pot. How about raised multiway. Can't we come up with scenarios where 3-betting, cold-calling and folding are appropriate?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate making rules for situations where "it depends." when there's a raiser in front of you, holding these hands, it definitely depends on the situation. in an unraised pot, I don't think it matters, as AJs and KQs should be raised IMO

for shits and giggles, this is my opinion:

3-bet a LP raiser
fold to a raiser unless there's 3 (?) other people have voluntarily entered the pot
fold probably 80-90% of the time to a raiser

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you aware that the loose games section of HPFAP doesn't pertain to loose LL games? it pertains to loose middle limit games, like 30/60 and 40/80.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's absurd. This section is about "very good... loose, passive game where many people see the flop and then play poorly after that". How do you conclude that the advice only applies to a 40/80 game? Sounds like a pretty good description of a typical low limit game to me.

They continue to say that you should adjust by "frequently keeping it to one bet preflop, more than (sthief) thinks you should". They specifically mention AQ.

So... do you think the authors are mistaken? Or is it possible that it's incorrect to always raise these hands?

[/ QUOTE ]


it's a known fact that the book, and that chapter specifically, don't pertain to low limit games. you're arguing against a known fact.

I can't believe you've been registered for over a year and are still unaware of this.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you aware that the loose games section of HPFAP doesn't pertain to loose LL games? it pertains to loose middle limit games, like 30/60 and 40/80.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's absurd. This section is about "very good... loose, passive game where many people see the flop and then play poorly after that". How do you conclude that the advice only applies to a 40/80 game? Sounds like a pretty good description of a typical low limit game to me.

They continue to say that you should adjust by "frequently keeping it to one bet preflop, more than (sthief) thinks you should". They specifically mention AQ.

So... do you think the authors are mistaken? Or is it possible that it's incorrect to always raise these hands?

[/ QUOTE ]


it's a known fact that the book, and that chapter specifically, don't pertain to low limit games. you're arguing against a known fact.

I can't believe you've been registered for over a year and are still unaware of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

NPA Ed Miller recently posted a confirmation of this too. I think it was in the book forum.

[BottlesOf]

I very much like your "for shits ans giggles" how to play them after a raiser.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
it's a known fact that the book, and that chapter specifically, don't pertain to low limit games. you're arguing against a known fact.

I can't believe you've been registered for over a year and are still unaware of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This will be my last post on this topic.

Let's say I believe that the authors were thinking of some loose 40-80 game when they wrote the section in question. Fine. So what? What in hell does that have to do with what I'm saying? Do you understand why your response isn't a response at all? Have you even considered what I'm trying to say? I suspect you don't give two shits about anyone's opinion on this, and you'd decided that your "rule" for low limit games was in fact perfect before you even posted your question.

So here's the point. The loose games section in HEFAP gives several pages of logical arguments for game conditions in which not raising hands like these would be beneficial, and exactly why that is the case. Maybe they wrote those words while thinking of a 40-80 game. So? Would you like to argue that those conditions don't occur in low limit games? I can't imagine how you could seriously defend that statement.

Why am I trying to convince you anyways? Raise whatever the hell you want. Make it a rule.

my 2 cents
Eric

[sublime]

I dont know whats more odd, the fact that this post even had to made or the fact that its even being debated.

These are all easy raises.

[Noodles]

I agree and always raise those hands,i actually rather raise the offsuit ones early so as to knock those after me out and have a better chance of winning the pot, i like raising the suited one in LP better after a lot of limpers,not too mad about raising the offsuits late after a lot of limpers but do it anyway

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, the hands that you want to play like AT and A6s won't call a raise cold. AK and AQ will still play though and usually reraise you

[/ QUOTE ]

What???? At low limit? Most call a raise with any kind of ace,cos they think "if he has a PP and i hit an ace then i will bust his ass"

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
You not playing with enough stupid people. Find more stupid people to play with. They'll call with anything!



[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO! Exactly and praise them on their dumb-dumb play! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sthief09]

the loose games section of the book assumes your opponents are slightly too loose preflop (they're cold-calling with pretty good hands like ATs, KQs, 99, maybe QJs, etc), but play well postflop. if this was the case then raising AJs wouldn't be such a great idea because you're going to get cold-called by good hands, and you lose a lot of your edge because the pot is now bigger, and thus harder to manage, and your opponents won't play their hands too far.

in the games we play in, you get cold-called by all kinds of assortments of crap, and your opponents call down to the river regardless. when this is the case, (1) your preflop equity is huge, since people are calling your raise with complete crap, and (2) your oppoennts are don't pay enough attention to the size of the pot, so pumping it won't make it more difficult to play postflop. they're going to call regardless, whether the pot is 6 SB or 12 SB.

you can argue that Party 3/6 players aren't as bad as I'm making them out to be, but I'd disagree with you.

[Kevin J]

I don't believe in set "standards" when playing poker. I sometimes limp with these hands and will continue to do so. I'm curious why you want us all to agree and stop doing this?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, yes. But I tend to buy into the Feeney/Sklansky philosophy that anything in poker that you do habitually (without thinking) is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the abstract that makes sense. In practical play it does not.

A rule that is 99+% correct and is only slightly wrong when it is wrong can beneficially be treated as a 100% rule if doing so allows you to save your mental energy, play in tempo, and keep the game flowing.

The time to explore the last 1% is away from the table.