Pushing with big stack on the bubble

[Pitcher]

Hi All,

I was playing in a PP $100 SNG and had around 4500 chips at the bubble. The rest of the chips were evenly distributed among the other 3 players. I started pushing on nearly every hand. One of my opponents asked if I was on tilt (I had lost a small pot on a bad beat 2-3 hands before I started this and there were 5 players left). I didn't answer and kept pushing. I don't need to be on tilt to keep pushing in that situation! Many players will not call on the bubble without a very good hand so I can steal blind after blind this way. Many players don't do this, and they should seriously consider it if they have passive opponents.

Pitcher

[unfrgvn]

What were the blinds at that point?

I play at smaller buy ins, 10 and 20. I can't bring myself to play this way, though I have run into a couple of players who did it to me. It was effective, it's tough to be the one to put your money finish on the line. I finally decided I would call with any pair down to about 5's, Ax, K 10 or above. I ended up doubling up with K 10 against his garbage. Still finished 3rd.

The reason I can't bring myself to play this way is the last thing I want to do is double someone up who has T1200 or so. As you said, you're only getting called by their best hands, if you run into 2 good hands in a row everyone is sitting around 2200 or so and it's back to a shootout. Would you have stopped pushing if you doubled someone up?

[Pitcher]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I can't bring myself to play this way is the last thing I want to do is double someone up who has T1200 or so. As you said, you're only getting called by their best hands, if you run into 2 good hands in a row everyone is sitting around 2200 or so and it's back to a shootout. Would you have stopped pushing if you doubled someone up?


[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo! The 1st. time someone doubles, you back off. There are two reasons for this. The 1st. is that you don't want to give up your chip lead (as you stated, your back in a dog fight) and 2nd. now that someone has called and seen that you have nothing, they are more emboldened to call with weaker holdings. You want them to fold until a certain point so you can milk it. The last thing you want is a call.

I do suggest you try this though. Getting better is usually about getting out of your comfort zone. Think about this....even with garbage you are only a 3:2 dog most of the time. In the example you used about having K10. Suppose your opponent had 7-5...well, you are only a 3:2 favorite (slightly better if the K10 is suited). If the chipleader wins this hand they are in a totally dominant position.

Pitcher

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting better is usually about getting out of your comfort zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great line. This is true for any aspect of the game, IMO. Every once in a while I make a completely "out-of-line" play, that I wouldn't dream of doing regularly, but I just want to know how it feels, how others reacts, where does it bring you. For instance, bluffing big againt 3 opponents, with absolutely nothing and from EP. In the right timing, such moves are very strong (rarely, yes). But if you never try them, how would you know when, and why?

My point is, that NL SNGs give a lot of opportunities to examine different strategies and tactics. You don't lose a lot if you bust from one game, and if you've learned something new, it can be actually +EV in the longer run. And since it's NO-limit, you usually have a lot of room for trying some very different approaches. (Yes, I know this thinking can be used in a very bad and dangarous way. I'm talking about players who already know pretty well what they're doing, and are looking for the "next step").

It's also important, IMO, to try sometimes and play a very "passive" game, just to see how others react, and in what spots it's the right choice.

Also, playing a bit like a maniac (or any other type of player, even a calling station. Although maniacal approach is MUCH more profitable than any "calling" style), will help you understand how maniacs think and act. Being able to get into your opponents' mind, is a big advantage in poker.

Only some thoughts. And BTW, I really like it when people think I'm on tilt... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ghazban]

In the Foxwoods WPT event this past season, Hoyt Corkins had a huge chip lead and was doing just that once it got down to 2 or 3 players. It was interesting to watch and, though it looks like it takes the skill out of the game, it really does put your opponents to the test. As you've said, its very very hard for them to call all their money in without a very good hand even if they KNOW you'll push with anything.

[Jason Strasser]

Pitcher,

In general, if your opponents play too tight this is fine. It is important to note that this works about 300 times better with 4 people left instead of three. The equal stacks do help you out, because once you get them in a waiting war, you win. I tend to avoid pushing with absolutely anything if one stack is real low and one stack isnt so low, if the small stack is acting after me. Generally the small stack will be thinking "I have to double up now or I have no shot." I dont like pushing against them with bad hands.

Conversely, I think you are doing a crime if you dont bully the middle stack for all his chips, if the small stack has folded. This can be done with 23o IMO on the bubble, even if the middle stack has a nice sized chunk of chips.

Stack sizes have everything to do with this spot. I think giving the advice to push anything four-handed is decent against tight opponents, but playing other player's stack sizes is the best way to handle the situation.

Adjust Adjust Adjust.

[unfrgvn]

Lots of good ideas in this thread. Of course as a big stack in the past I have loosened my pushing requirements, but never tried the strategy of pushing with anything. I think Jason made some good points about watching how small the small stack is or if the table is loose.

Praying Mantis made some good points about trying different things just to see what happens. I also have done this. My poker has improved a lot since coming here, thanks to all who post.
Next goal, get better at MTT's. For some reason my game hasn't translated well over there.

[Pitcher]

Hi All,

Jason made a good point about the stacks. A short stack is much more likely to call, which you don't want.

Note that I like this situation enough where I have actually folded on purpose to a shortstack with a good hand to even out the chips. Of course, I have to be very convinced about the tightness of my opponents and have a very dominant (perhaps 5000+ chips out of 10K) stack before attempting something like that. It works in the right situation.

Pitcher

[ddubois]

I had a commanding chip lead and blew it when the blinds got large. This was a very frustrating loss.

Can someone please review my tournament report at http://ddubois.bounceme.net/poker/pty_07022004_03.txt and advise me where I should have stolen blinds? It felt like every hand was raised before it got to me or I had 9 high and I just couldn't bring myself to push. The blinds got huge, money kept going back and forth with few eliminations, and eventually I made a stupid blind defense with a (abrely) dominated Kx and got crippled.

[HentaiGaijin]

P0K3RM4N, your mistake, I think, was calling the all-in bets by Talewind with Kd7h and before that with 55. It's reasonable to go all-in with those hands if you are the first to act, but questionable to call all-in with them. You have to think about what your opponent would push in with that you can beat.

Kd7h is weak because the K is your only card in play, with no good straight or flush potential. I think that calling an all-in should be considered much riskier than pushing all-in yourself.

55 is probably a better hand to call an all-in with, but again, it has almost no potential to improve.

Next time, be patient, and make the all-in move when you have the opportunity to act first. A hand becomes stronger when you are the one pushing.

[ddubois]

Well, I already posted the Kx call was stupid, but I'm not so sure abotu the 55? I was ahead and I had an overlay?