large pot with TPTK

[soah]

Blinds are $3/$6, I've been at the table a little while, and I've not done anything too far out of line. Then we get this hand:

Preflop: UTG limps; he has $100 left. I have no read on him at this time. Next guy limps too; he's got $1600. His play seems solid. I am next to act with AJ and have about $600. The table has not been overly passive, so I have no reason to believe that they would limp with AQ, JJ, or anything better. I raise to $18, hoping to isolate the limpers. It works.

Flop: Great flop for me -- J-9-little, two suits. I do not have a card of the flush suit. UTG bets $18 into the pot that already has $60 in it. Big stack makes it $50 to go. At this point I'm really confused; I raised pre-flop and now there's already a bet and a raise before me when I flop TPTK. Limping with J9 with no position seems unlikely, and I think they would have raised with JJ, so I'm only in trouble if they flopped middle or bottom set. But with a set, why bet into the raiser? I decide I'm most likely ahead at this point, and I don't want to make it cheap for flush or straight draws that they may have been betting with. I make it $100 to go. UTG calls all-in, and the big stack calls as well.

Turn: The turn card is a complete brick, and the big stack checks to me. There's now $350 in the pot. The fact that UTG called two raises cold on the flop after making such a small initial bet has scared me. I worry that I'm playing just for the (virtually empty) side pot. I decide I can't risk giving a free card in case I'm still ahead, but I don't know how much to bet. I end up betting another $100, but I'm not happy about it. I plan to check behind on the river -- my hand is good at winning small pots and losing big ones, and this pot isn't small...

River: The board pairs nines on the river. (We now have J9xx9). The flush and straight draws missed, and still no queens or kings out there, so I'm fairly happy. But then the big stack bets $100 at me. This guy seems to be a solid player, so I figure it unlikely that he has stuck around to the river with just a pair of nines. Maybe he's trying to represent a nine to pick up the side pot. The nine does make it less likely though that he flopped a set of nines, so according to my initial read the only hand he might have which has me beaten is bottom set -- now a full house. I can't figure out a whole lot of hands though that he may have now that I can beat. I call and pray.

I don't want to spoil the feedback by posting results just yet. I'm interested in comments on all streets. I obviously screwed up on the turn, but what would have the right amount to bet? I'm also wondering if I should have raised more on or prior to the flop? In the end it feels like I've overplayed my hand, but yet I also think I should have bet and raised more... quite confusing.

[sniperd]

This is a confusing hand. It almost appears that he has the same hand as you, the only other thing I can think of is a set of nines or the bottom set. I think your play is fine, but the flop is very confusing. The first player betting could be any J since he is so short stacked, but the guy calling you out of position seems weird. I am also interested in hear feedback from other about this hand.

[ML4L]

Hey soah,

I fold the flop, precisely because of the problems that you ran into later in the hand. But, a raise is a hell of a lot better than a call.

I would not bet the turn. You're going to screw yourself if you get check-raised. Plus, what "free cards" are you worried about? I would be quick to put UTG on a draw, but not the solid player. You are either behind to two pair or a set, tied with AJ, or MAYBE ahead of KJ or something. It is also possible that he has pair + flush draw (so specific suits of cards would help). But, based on your read of "solid," I think that you are playing to tie here, at best.

On the river, that bet looks like it's begging to be called. It appears that the other player saw your weakness by the amount of your turn bet and is scared that you will check behind. You might call and find an overplayed AJ or a missed draw that bluffed, though. I think call or fold is close on the river.

If you were going to bet the turn, you have to bet more. It might as well be all-in, because your stack size is such that a bet of 2/3 of the pot will be nearly half of your remaining stack. This is another reason to check the turn.

Don't feel that you didn't "bet and raise enough." If anything, you did it too much. I think that raising the flop is fine (but I'd raise a little more), but once the solid player calls, I'd play conservatively.

ML4L

[schwza]

I agree that folding on the flop would be the best play. But if I raised, I would raise the flop bigger, maybe to 150. This would help define their hands (especially the big stack's hand), who at this point could have a wide range of hands (JT, A9, KQ). Any of these could be played as a semi-bluff/isolation raise, and they would all be folded to a sizable raise.

I disagree with others who have said to check the turn. I would bet about 200. I think you can safely fold to a check-raise here, as the side pot is still small enough that the big stack would not want to risk his chips on something like a flush draw. (and then hope to check behind on the river).

As it played out, I think you have to call the river. The pot's too big and the bet's too small - it could be a missed draw that hopes you missed your draw also.

[soah]

Let's say that I raised bigger on the flop - to about $150. For those that advocate me betting the turn, how would this change things?

I'm also curious about pre-flop... was tripling the BB a good move? I can understand mucking AJ with six people to act behind me... but I saw an opportunity to play a hand with position over two players that had shown weakness. Smart play?

[polyphemus]

bottom set (22 thru 44) that rivered a full house, he wanted to make sure he didn't lose to a flush or perhaps he was leery you were trapping with a set of 9s until the river, the river cinched it, and he doesn't want to miss any more of your money. He bets $100 because it is an odd enough number to confuse you into coming over the top where he'll literally beat you into the pot with his money.

[cornell2005]

i think your logic for the flop works alot better if it were heads up. with 3 in the pot, calling there isnt every attractive. 1. your probably not ahead, or if you are, the chances are about even at best and 2. if you are indeed ahead, most of the time the betting will continue anyways and you will be put in a pretty horrible situation later in the hand and 3. even if you are ahead, both of them shut down, they no doubt still have outs to either jump ahead or scare you.

[TStoneMBD]

I think that raising is better than calling on the flop, but I agree with the others in that a fold is best overall. You are either up against a draw or a set. You are up against a solid player and you aren't sure what type of hand he is on. By pursuing the flop you have to be committed to calling bets later on if the flush draw misses. I don't think its correct to bet your TPTK so hard and then fold it later on because you found out he probably setted. The decision for this course of action should have been made on the flop before you invested yourself and not the river.

Aside from that, I don't like the bet on the turn. If the solid player is drawing he has already invested alot of money. If he has a set you're going to see a bet on the river. Because you made the side pot so much, you stuck yourself with this tough decision to make on the next card. If the side pot was empty, the solid player won't go bluffing a busted flush draw on the river and therefore if he bets here the best you can hope for is AJ. The way that you played this hand is setting yourself up for mistakes further in the hand because you have no idea what your opponent has. I would be content just winning the main pot and keeping the side pot as small as possible. Because you don't know what your opponent is on you're better off just checking. If the river flushes than you fold to any bet as any hand beats you except AJ.

The fact that the solid player raised into you is indeed confusing. I can't really think of a scenario in which this play that he made is correct. I guess he may have put you on AK and put the UTG on a draw. If that is the case than he would have a set here. I can't see him raising the UTG with a draw of his own because he can expect you to come back over the top of him if you brought it in with an overpair.

My guess is pocket 44s.

[soah]

UTG shows KJ, solid (?) player shows QJ.