Uninteresting hand!!! I'd like some feedback, but it's UNINTERESTING!

[snowbank]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed)

MP3 (t1540)
CO (t1960)
Button (t1565)
SB (t795)
Hero (t1390)
UTG (t1105)
UTG+1 (t1710)
MP1 (t1575)
MP2 (t1860)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t50, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t150) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets t100, UTG raises to t1055, SB folds, Hero calls t955.

Turn: (t2260) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2260) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2260

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 4h 7d (two pair, sevens and fours).
UTG shows Qd Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: UTG wins t2260. </font>

[La Brujita]

I think you played it fine. What buy in tourney was this?

I don't think it is uninteresting at all since I always like to see how other people play hands like this, very good but not great hands.

This hand to me speaks to the shallowness of the money and how people are willing to back top pair very strongly on the internet.

Edit to add I think you should have bet the pot not 2/3 of the pot since this is a hand that is very vulnerable.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

This is the most interesting hand I have ever seen. You are wrong.

[snowbank]

This was a $20 buy in sit and go. The reason I titled this uninteresting is kind of a joke because I posted another very interesting hand, and some guy kept saying how uninterested he was in it. I would appreciate your feedback on that hand as well. I've received a lot of feedback on it so far and am interested to see what other people think of that hand. It is in the 1 table tourney section as well.

[snowbank]

HAHA. Thanks Braves.

[bonanz]

now that's more like it! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

see i wasn't expecting much so it turned out better than i had hoped.

When i was reading through it i instantly put the guy on KQ, and i didnt realize at first that he bet all in, but i saw that Q hit on the turn and knew you were sunk before i read white. nothing you can do, you got your money in with the best of it...maybe betting more on the flop would be appropriate, but against this guy i don't think it would have mattered.

it does bring up the interesting point about how people go balls out with top pair...key word "interesting" /images/graemlins/wink.gif

regards,
bonanz

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]


This hand to me speaks to the shallowness of the money and how people are willing to back top pair very strongly on the internet.

Edit to add I think you should have bet the pot not 2/3 of the pot since this is a hand that is very vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. People are willing to back top pair very strongly because other, even worse people are willing to back 2nd pair or bluffs very strongly

2. I play this identical to you snowback. I like the 2/3 size bet precisely because its vulnerable and I hate bottom two pair. If board pairs or flushcard hits then i fold. With stacks this big, i see the bad loose players calling with their draws on pot size, wheras the decent players are likely to fold to the 2/3 bet. Just what i see in my $20 sngs.

--Greg

[Pitcher]

Hi Snowbank,

I guess I am the only one who doesn't like the way you played this. This is a vulnerable flop and it is precisely why you move in on the flop. Don't wait to get raised all in....push. Most opponents will fold...putting you on a bigger hand than you have. Note that I play much higher limits so this may have something to do with players not wanting to call. In a $20 tourney some opponents may say what the heck and call.

Pitcher

[DrPhysic]

Snowbank,
I agree with Pitcher. Your 100 bet on the flop is an invitation to be called or to have the other guy get aggressive, which he did.

You have pretty obviously the best hand when the flop hits, but it's a weak hand. Negative implied odds. Meaning you have the best hand now, but the more cards you let him see, the higher the odds that you won't have the best hand by the time it's over.

I push immediately on the flop hoping to end the hand right then. If he calls, you are in the same shape, but most opponents will put you on a better hand and fold.

You see way too many all-in bets in early levels at lower buyins. Some of them are just crazy, but here you have a hand that really wants to be played all-in to be successful.

Interesting hand.

Doc

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Snowbank,
I agree with Pitcher. Your 100 bet on the flop is an invitation to be called or to have the other guy get aggressive, which he did.

You have pretty obviously the best hand when the flop hits, but it's a weak hand. Negative implied odds. Meaning you have the best hand now, but the more cards you let him see, the higher the odds that you won't have the best hand by the time it's over.

I push immediately on the flop hoping to end the hand right then. If he calls, you are in the same shape, but most opponents will put you on a better hand and fold.

You see way too many all-in bets in early levels at lower buyins. Some of them are just crazy, but here you have a hand that really wants to be played all-in to be successful.

Interesting hand.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]


Push 1300 into a 150 pot on the flop? That doesn't sound right. Why not try and check raise if you are going to try to get it all in on the flop?

[snowbank]

I would not like checking that hand with the intention of raising all-in. The reason for that is, what if he checks right behind me. I don't want to give him free cards with my hand there. If he has 7's on the flop I allow him to hit a better two pair than me. Same thing if he has 4's or K's, which in this case he did.

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
Push 1300 into a 150 pot on the flop? That doesn't sound right. Why not try and check raise if you are going to try to get it all in on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing and this response imo brings out an interesting discussion on pricing people out/staying alive in sit and gos.

Basically a pot sized bet gives 2:1 pot odds to call. Here are the odds seeing it to the river.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks 7s 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 4h 702 70.91 288 29.09 0 0.00 0.709
Kd Qd 288 29.09 702 70.91 0 0.00 0.291

But if you pot it on the turn he has five outs plus 9 diamonds to improve. Thus potting the flop will price him out of calling, even given the implied odds I think?

If you check raise all in he will likely become committed to the pot.

None of this gives any great global answer but if your goal is to get him to make a FTOP mistake potting it will do it.

On the other hand if you think he will call an all in then you get him to make an even bigger mistake so go ahead.

But what I am not sure of is when Pitcher says most opponents would fold, it seems he is implying you want a fold. Do you want him to make an incorrect (for you) fold here?

[Pitcher]

Hi NotMitch,

[ QUOTE ]
Push 1300 into a 150 pot on the flop? That doesn't sound right. Why not try and check raise if you are going to try to get it all in on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what I don't want to do. He is probably pot committed with his large flop bet. I don't want a call and a checkraise is likely to get just that. I would gladly push in this situation.

Pitcher

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi NotMitch,

[ QUOTE ]
Push 1300 into a 150 pot on the flop? That doesn't sound right. Why not try and check raise if you are going to try to get it all in on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what I don't want to do. He is probably pot committed with his large flop bet. I don't want a call and a checkraise is likely to get just that. I would gladly push in this situation.

Pitcher

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because you don't want to let him see cards doesn't mean pushing is right. In fact I'm quite sure it is awful. Why risk your stack to win a tiny pot? I really dont see that push is better than a bet of 150 (pot) or 200 (slightly over the pot) here is? Or why you want an opponent who is way behind to fold. I dont get your thinking at all here.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Push 1300 into a 150 pot on the flop? That doesn't sound right. Why not try and check raise if you are going to try to get it all in on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing and this response imo brings out an interesting discussion on pricing people out/staying alive in sit and gos.

Basically a pot sized bet gives 2:1 pot odds to call. Here are the odds seeing it to the river.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks 7s 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 4h 702 70.91 288 29.09 0 0.00 0.709
Kd Qd 288 29.09 702 70.91 0 0.00 0.291

But if you pot it on the turn he has five outs plus 9 diamonds to improve. Thus potting the flop will price him out of calling, even given the implied odds I think?

If you check raise all in he will likely become committed to the pot.

None of this gives any great global answer but if your goal is to get him to make a FTOP mistake potting it will do it.

On the other hand if you think he will call an all in then you get him to make an even bigger mistake so go ahead.

But what I am not sure of is when Pitcher says most opponents would fold, it seems he is implying you want a fold. Do you want him to make an incorrect (for you) fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I pot it here, like I would with about 99% of hands I'm going to bet in this spot.

[DrPhysic]

Mitch,

You may be right about the 200 bet (or maybe 300, see below) instead of pushing. My only thought was that 7744 is a weak 2 pair, and while you do have the advantage at the moment, and might win at the river, you would be better off to take a smaller pot on the flop than letting him look at two more cards. Therefore my thought was to make the pot odds sufficiently against him that he can't call with one pair as he did in this hand. That is plus the fact that many weak players will call without considering pot odds, so a little intimidation is needed (which is why I said maybe 300).

Bottom line: I'd rather win a little one a lot of times than gamble on winning a big one sometimes.

Doc

[snowbank]

Glad you were more satisfied with this one. Makes my day! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Ya, I put the guy on AK or KQ, called, then remembered I was at pokerstars and it was all downhill from there.

[snowbank]

Come to think about it, AK would probably be ruled out because he limped in on the hand. Limping in with KQ makes sense, but probably not with AK. Also, if he was a sneaky enough player to limp with AK I don't think he would make the odd all-in with AK, TPTK if that was what he had. Unless he has 4-4 or 7-7, KQ would probably be the only possibility after he raised all-in on the flop. Anyone agree or disagree?

[NotMitch]

Dr,

I think we totally agree on what we want it seems like getting there is the hard part. I think this is going to be a hand I get broke on in my Sngs most of the time.

From the way opponent played it my guess is he never goes away on the flop no matter what you do. So lets say you bet 300, and he pushes my guess is most people would call and rightly so.

But what if he just calls (Assume SB goes away)? Pot is T750 hero's stack is T1000 and action is on hero. Turn was a queen giving opponent a better 2 pair, but you have no way to know this. So what happens how? check/fold, check/call (a likely all in), push, or bet 300 and fold to an all in? All of these don't seem real fun.

This is why I'm betting less than 300 on the flop, if I get called the pot is smaller and I can pot it (or close to it)again on the turn and still have soom room to fold to an all in if I chose to. There really are not a lot of bets on the flop that aren't pot sized.

For all the talk of a hand that isnt all that great it seems like people want to shovel in money behind it and play a big a pot with it.

[snowbank]

Hey Mitch,

You said, "Turn was a queen giving opponent a better 2 pair, but you have no way to know this". I really think if he bet big on the turn, for example if he moved all in I would have to know he had KQ. I gave reasons why in a previous response. KQ would probably be the only possibility for him to have. Look up at one of my previous responses and let me know if you agree.

[DrPhysic]

Mitch,

I think you are right that getting there is the hard part.

If I can bet this hand on the flop, just hard enough that he has to comitt (or however the he** you spell that), he either folds, or shows me that he has a real hand. Of course, if he is shrewd, he may call with a monster and then I am still in the soup and prob am going to lose the whole stack before the hand is over as you suggested. I would like if I can, however, to at least give him an opportunity to feed me some information about what he is holding. I really suspect that this guy is not all that shrewd after the original min raise. I do think he would have folded KQ with a Kxx flop to a sufficiently intimidating bet on the flop. Maybe not, maybe he plays it all the way no matter what I do. In which case I will lose when he draws the Q on the turn.

It may be that you can't get out of losing the stack on this hand, but I'd still like to try. Interesting corollary question: If he does come back with a push, can any of us lay down two pair?

Doc

[NotMitch]

Hi Dr,

This hand is very interesting, and I have had a lot of time to think about it. I have to disagree that this player is folding a K to a strong flop bet given how much he raised the flop (though he could have felt the bet was weak). I just can't put him on a monster here with an UTG limp, unless I have specific notes that say "tricky, limped with KK etc". In my thinking about the hand one thought kept popping in my head.

Lets say hero had AA instead of 74 (and hit the wrong button and thats why he didnt raise preflop), do people play it any differnt? Because in this situation they are more less the same hand. KQ has to hit a 5 outer to beat you with 74 or AA on a K74 flop and I know there is nobody here who doesnt want it all in on a K high flop with AA vs KQ. (Note my gut says AA is slightly better than 74 on this flop just because when KQ makes 2 pair it has slightly better redraws but I dont think the difference is all that large).

The bottom line is I want all my money in on the flop because I don't think he has my 2 pair beat and he is way behind. Against an agressive player I would likely check raise a large amount, other than I bet the pot and hope he raises.

Now if he just called my pot sized bet on the flop, I re-pot it on the turn and then get put all in I could think about laying it down but I dont think I do. That means he has to have exactly KQ and I dont think we have enough info to know that. Really depends on who the player is, but I think laying down 2 pair in these low limit SnGs in this type of situation is a mistake most of the time.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Mitch,

You said, "Turn was a queen giving opponent a better 2 pair, but you have no way to know this". I really think if he bet big on the turn, for example if he moved all in I would have to know he had KQ. I gave reasons why in a previous response. KQ would probably be the only possibility for him to have. Look up at one of my previous responses and let me know if you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is giving him too much credit, a lot players will make an agressive play with a lot less than KQ here. Putting him on exactly hand is a very narrow read.