QQ under fire deep stacks

[bunky9590]

I really had a hard time with this one. I 'm not sure how the big boys would have played it.

Setting up this hand.

I had been getting reasonable cards AK TT, JJ QQ etc along with AA and KK, and have been oipen raise my standard bring in of $5.00 or so. I'm playing with this other player at another table as well.

Other player is getting real tired of my raising and asks Do I make it 5 bucks with any ace and pocket pair? I stay quiet.

Other table villian is short stacked at 18 bucks. folded to me on the button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif I open raise to 5. Villian pushes. BB folds I call like a shot after the comment from last time. She shows QJo, and I stack her.

I also raised 67s on the button folded all but one person when the flop came 722. I went to showdown and won, this proceeds to flip the other player out even more. This big hand comes up........


I have Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in LP and raise to $5.00 , villian makes it $25.00 has only 40 left now. Cold called by solid player on the Button. (Rut roh) But he is observant to know what is going on.

I just call, If he doesn't cold call and its HU, I push here.

Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I check, villian checks, Button checks. (Its not past the button to check an Ace here. (His VP$IP is around 20%)

Turn K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check again not liking the SECOND overcard, villain checks, button bets 40, I fold, villain folds.

So am I a weak tight punk or what?
Villian later told me she had JJ.

I can't put the button on a cold calling a $25.00 raise with a hand worse than mine there.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
I 'm not sure how the big boys would have played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then you don't want my thoughts, but you're getting them anyway /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I think you played fine. I don't know what you were planning to do but I'd call the raise preflop with the intention of pushing on a favorable flop (its highly unlikely the villian or cold caller had AA or KK, based on how you set up the hand). There's a very high chance that someone behind you hit that A on the flop, as I doubt both would be playing medium pockets here or something like KQs. Not a lot you could do except check/fold at this point, IMO.

[bunky9590]

Oh stack sizes . The button and I had over $200 a piece.

I neglected to mention that in the first post.

[SlyAK]

I would check-fold when the ace falls there. (Although I might think about pushing PF, given the table image of maniac). No overcard on the flop and its an auto-push.

YOU RAISING with 76s??? What has the world come too??? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sly

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
YOU RAISING with 76s??? What has the world come too???


[/ QUOTE ]

It WAS on the button and my PFR were getting way too much respect and I was in the middle of a 4 hour session. So it was for a bit of advestising as well.

Here was the hand I played this one awesomely.

3 limpers to me I make it 5 with 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
called by only one fishy in EP.

Flop 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
He checks, I bet 10, he calls.

Turn 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
He checks, I check it right back at him.

River T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
He bets 15, I call like a shot and MHIG.

(He had J5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)
That'll loosen my image up.
Gregg

[Leo Bello]

Greatest problem here is position. Giving your position you played it fine.

[schwza]

i would consider making it 70 or so before the flop hoping to get villain heads up. if button pushes, i'd then fold. but i play on shallow stack party, so i don't run into these problems (meaning this would be an easy push).

after the flop i'd play it like you did.

oh, and i raise 67s in a short-handed game all the time (in position). last week i was playing with friends and raised a limper pre-flop. the flop came low, gaving me a pair plus OESD plus backdoor flush draw, and he check-raised me all-in on a bluff. he later said "well i didn't think you would have that after you raised." i think he meant it as some sort of insult but i took it as a compliment.

[gergery]

I think you played it fine, but I would have reraised to ~$100, to offer them $75 to win $150 odds – seems like enough to make them go away or at least narrow to one opponent, and AA/KK from button is sure to reraise you here.

Putting myself in their shoes: button sees aggressive player raising, sees loose player reraising, knows they’re playing around with each other – sounds like a great spot for an AA/KK reraise, since I wouldn’t want both of them around for a flop and you and your little friend are likely to stick around. I give him AK-AT maybe sooted, or JJ-99. Your aggressive playback friend also cannot have AA/KK has she “knows” you’re raising with crap – she’d not want to overbet to $25 like that. I give her a hand that doesn’t want to be called but can handle it 44-JJ, or AQ-A7s. But obviously if you have a different read then play it different.

With the way you played it, you have to figure one of the two of them for an Ace so must check/fold on flop. Bluffing to represent AK is risky.

-Greg

[Jon Matthews]

I don't think it even needs to be shorthanded to raise with something like this every so often. On a full table if I'm on the button, CO or CO-1, I'll fire it up to $5 ($1 BB) if I'm first in or there's one MP limper.

If I hit I usually end up taking it down on the flop as the caller may have missed. If I miss and there's one broadway card on the flop I take it down. Sometimes I'm raised, sometimes it's clear I need to get out of the pot on the flop but I find it profitable overall (playing with at least a 100 BB stack) and it usually makes up for the times AK (or the like) misses and I lose my PFR.

Jon

[ML4L]

Hey bunky,

I'm guessing by your raise size that this was in a $0.50/$1 game...?

I might be mistaken on this line of thinking, so hopefully someone will correct me if it's backwards, but I would reraise preflop, mainly due to the presence of the other player in the pot. It is very likely that your hand is superior to villain's before the flop, but now the button wants to play too. A coldcall of a reraise by a tight player can be a disheartening sight, but what are the chances of his holding AA/KK with the pot already reraised in front of him by a short stack that is likely to call all-in? More likely, he holds a hand like 99 or AQ that he can't bring himself to fold given y'all's antics.

I would reraise, and expect the villain to call you with a lot of hands that she should fold if she knew what you held (e.g. JJ), while maybe even folding out some hands that should call if she knew that you held (e.g. AJ). If button stays again, play conservatively after the flop (although I'd still be quicker to put him on AK than AA/KK). With deep money, you probably weren't going to play your QQ too hard after the flop anyway against the opponent, so folding him out and getting his dead money is likely better than playing out the hand with an extra player, because you will be more likely to have been caught if an overcard comes (or more likely to be bluffed by said overcard).

Without button and his dead money, which might induce a loose call from her, I might smoothcall her reraise. But, given how she views you, I think that pushing is better.

Postflop, you played it fine. If you felt like the button would bet pretty much anything there after being checked to twice, you could put in a check-raise. But, no shame in letting this one go.

ML4L

[bunky9590]

Thanks for the deep reply Mike. Let me give it to you as I felt it go down. (Yes it was a .50/1.00 game)

The villian really was getting tired of my tactics, but truth was I was getting cards. (aside from the 67s) and I was getting little if any action on the PFR.

The 67s hand happened at the other table that me and the villian were at. The button did not see that hand.

Hence when I made it 5, it didnt mean much. When the villain made it 25, it looked like a legitimate reraise here. (I knew better, I had just stacked her at the other table and knew I had the best hand going in) I put her on JJ, TT or maybe AK, AQ. She wasn't going to reraise with QJ again, she knows I'll look her up and I do have at least a little ammunition in the gun when I am firing.

The button with a deep stack (200BB+) cold calls the $25.00 reraise. I have him covered but only by maybe 20 bucks. Now I'm scratching my head here. I have just beeen reraise but what I feel to be a weaker hand by a shortstack,, and a cold call with position by a deep, tight stack (haven't seen much aggression from him) I look him up in pokertracker during my quick time (300+ hands VP$IP around 20% and PFR is around 3%) GOD BLESS YOU POKERTRACKER!!!

Now I'm in a dilemma. The reraise I'm not worried about but the cold call stopped me in my tracks. My plan was to see what the flop brought (out of position) and play it REAL SLOW from there. This button I actually put squarely on a minimum of AK, KK or AA. i can't see a very tight player calling with much less and he has position opn me and the short stack. (Not a good position for me.)

Flop checks through on the Ace high flop. I KNOW the villain doesn't have an ace, she would have moved right there. What concerns me now is the button. He checks. Either means one of two things, a FULL BLOWN MONSTER, or a hand he wants to showdown.

Turn K
Man can I get another overcard!!!!

I surely can't bet here now either, let's hope it checks through again. (Not a chance). Villain checks as well. Now I know she has a smaller PP than I do. Villain bets 40 into a 80 dollar pot. Once again can be begging for a call or a fgeeler bet/bluff. I decide he has to have a hand that is better than mine for a tight player to stand a raise and a reraise, and mucked the QQ.

I'm gald to see that everyone is in aggremets here. I just wanted to make sure my line was correct. Man I hate being out of postion with a good hand and a scary board.

Thanks for the input and I hope I expalianed my feelings properly. Thought process alright?

[ML4L]

Hey bunky,

[ QUOTE ]
I look him up in pokertracker during my quick time (300+ hands VP$IP around 20% and PFR is around 3%) GOD BLESS YOU POKERTRACKER!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
This button I actually put squarely on a minimum of AK, KK or AA. i can't see a very tight player calling with much less and he has position opn me and the short stack. (Not a good position for me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, he's tight and doesn't seem very aggressive. But, that doesn't necessarily make him competent. It is not uncommon for mediocre, yet, tight players to coldcall here with hands like TT, 99, and AQ, or even 88 and AJs. Online, I'd have to see a player slowplay a big pair before I give him credit for being capable of doing so.

You are correct for not wanting to get involved too deeply in this situation, given the stacks and your read. And, I've never seen the guy play a hand, so maybe you know that he was a knowledgeable player. But, I think that you could have tried to get a little more value out of this hand while still not getting in over your head.

You did think it out clearly, though. After a coldcall of a reraise by a tight player, probably better to err on the side of caution than to wail away... And postflop, your analysis is good, and you played it correctly.

Mike

[Mackas]

I think you played it fine. In the circumstances putting in the third raise preflop would probably have been fine too but that's just another avenue in this situation, not necessarily a better one. FWIW I would have played it the same way as you, waiting for the flop to check for overcards.

Anyway, everyone else has said this already. I just wanted to add that you should always take what your opponent later says with a pinch of salt. She's probably just trying to wind you up. Maybe she had jacks, but then why not just show them? I know very few players who tell the truth in this situation. You were probably beat regardless of what she said and made a good lay down.

[bunky9590]

Hey Mackas,
Thanks for the input.

"she" folded right along with me, it was the button who made the bet on the turn that I couldn't call, she was in between us. (and I thought My position was bad, lol)

Being out of position with that hand with deep stacks there really sucked. But, I didn't blow off chips and preserved the stack.

See you soon.

[cero_z]

Hi bunky,
Move in pre-flop. I made a similar mistake in a live game last night. Obviously you are a favorite to have the tilter dominated. What you need to realize is that a good player will usually move all in with AA or KK in the button's position, because he is likely to get called by one of the two of you (the tilter for sure). Some players also don't want to run out the cards against 2 hands if they don't have to, whereas some don't mind. But the fact that the button cold-called means he can't beat you pre-flop (I haven't read the results if you've posted them, so color me embarrassed if I'm wrong).
On the flop, either be done with it, or bet 20 and be prepared to get away from it if the button raises. One thing that could make all this advice bad is if the "deep" stacks are deeper than I'm assuming. I'm thinking you and the button have like 300 or less. If you have more at risk, you have to give more consideration to the button having a bigger pair (though it doesn't look like it post-flop).
Interesting hand.

[cero_z]

Hi bunky,
I'd say that the most likely hand for the button to hold (pre-flop) was a medium pair, and after two aggressive players check twice to me in a big pot, it'd be hard not to make a bet, regardless of what I held. Don't be so sure you folded a loser here.

[B1GF1SHY]

I guess I'm not a good player but I would just call with KK on the button with a raise and re-raise infront of me. I'd check the flop just like the button did in fear of them having an A and hoping for a c/r, and bet my set when it hit.