Does Hellmuth Have The Yips??

[fsuplayer]

After reading and thinking about Hellmuth's article on his monster lay downs at this years World Series, it reminded me of a plague that attacks otherwise great veteran golfers...

The "Yips".

In golf, its when you think yourself into state at which your body can no longer perform an otherwise simple task which use to come easily.

Some of the best golfers ever, Hogan comes to mind, got the yips later in their career and simply could not make simple 2 foot putts to save their life.

Hellmuth has the "Yips".

It starts by failing a couple of times in tight, stressful situations. (Hellmuth vs. Toto Leonedas)
You then think about those situations so much, that when a similar situation comes along, even without the weight of the prior situation, and your mind tricks your body into reverting back to that stressful situation that caused the problem in the first place.

Hellmuth was regarded as one of the best hand readers in poker. He then tried too hard to make tough laydowns, got embarrassed by them on TV, but cant help himself from making them again.

Hellmuth is so worried about the two foot putts (the first days of big tourneys), that instead of trying to just make the putt, he is trying his hardest to not miss it.


Maybe, maybe not.

FsuPlayer

[TheGrifter]

I don't know, seems like he's still making final tables of major tournaments with regularity. I'd take his results.

[Syntax]

Absolutely, for sure, not. Unless you believe this is a recent phenomenom because he won 2 bracelets last year!

[TimTimSalabim]

I was just going to say that, actually. I mean, five final tables at WPT events alone, not to mention all the WSOP records he holds, yet so many people on here insist that he sucks. I don't get it.

[fsuplayer]

Hellmuth is an awesome player, and I will admit that I kind of like the guy.
All I was saying is that his line of thinking during some big hands is influenced by irrational fears of getting knocked out, instead of "how do I win this tournment?"

Obviously, a good player will avoid tight situations like coin flips, for the sake of having a greater edge later but come on....
[ QUOTE ]
This time I feel like my opponent has J-J or worse, but I still fold my hand face up. The big blind shows 7-7. I don't mind this at all. After all, I could have gone out if he hit a seven.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not healthy thinking for an excellent tourney pro who has a well below average stack in the WSOP.


He was trying to not get knocked out, instead of making the right play.

Fsuplayer

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I was just going to say that, actually. I mean, five final tables at WPT events alone, not to mention all the WSOP records he holds, yet so many people on here insist that he sucks. I don't get it.


[/ QUOTE ]
He is without question one of the greatest players of all time. I never said or infered that he sucks, just that his thinking style doesnt appear to be on the best track.

FsuPlayer

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you believe this is a recent phenomenom

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I am saying.

I dont know, but maybe that Lester hand (where he read Jason for JJ and made a great call with QQ and got sucked out on) messed him up some, bc it seems to be ever since then.


fsuplayer

[Sloats]

I think his mind is working on the level of the "inconceivable" Sicilian.

[Vagos]

I couldn't agree more FSU. Let me assure you I'm a big Phil Hellmuth fan. I get a kick out of his antics and think he's the best tournament player in the world. But when you start to toss QQ after reading your opponent for a pair of jacks or less, something's wrong. He said on the gutshot interview something like "I really did think he had jacks or tens but I thought I could run em up again without being all in".
We know Hellmuth can indeed run his chips up without risking much, but if you're not gonna take advantage of basically the best scenario in tournament poker(the beautiful 4.5 to 1 favorite)...you really need to do some thinking.
-Andy

[Syntax]

There are WAAAAAY better situations then 4.5:1 after the flop. Those are what the true pros are after. This why the Sklansky "All-In" strategy is effective to a degree.

[Vagos]

Ok, I should have edited my post to say "best preflop scenario" barring the AA vs AK or the KK vs KQ scenarios.
The fact is that yes, there are better post flop situations. But how can you not take advantage of these opportunities preflop? It seemed like players were taking advantage of his laydowns. He said on the interview he had QQ back to back hands, got pushed all in both times and folded both. It's no secret you need to win the coinflips to win big tournaments, but you need to be able to take the 4.5 to 1 favorites first!
-Andy

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you believe this is a recent phenomenom

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I am saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how the phenomenon of the card cameras has affected the play of the pros at final tables. Phil is such a good player that he makes all these final tables, but most of the criticism on this site comes from some of his plays at the final table.

I guess I just wonder if that thought creeps into the pro's minds nowadays. Maybe the thought of making a big laydown has a fraction of increased appeal when you know that people are going to see you made a great play - if you're right.

I would be curious to hear pros talk about this.

[Erdnase]

Hi fsuplayer,

I agree, that laydown was awful. Even more so, because he came to the new table whining about his other QQ laydown in the previous hand (at another table). He kept on whining about that hand while sitting down, then immediately raised UTG+1. The setup for someone with any mediocre holding to set him in was perfect. And someone did.

Greets, Erd.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
There are WAAAAAY better situations then 4.5:1 after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but they are few and far between. The common ones I can think of are a set on an overpair, a straight against a pair, or flushes when the other player doesnt have a higher card of that suit.

But like I said, everytime Hellmuth has these situations, they are not the point in the tourney where he has the time to wait for those types of near-chiches.

More importantly, if you "know" the guy has a underpair, and you dont call bc you dont want to get knocked out then that is awful and he should invest that $10,000 in bonds instead of tournments.

FsuPlayer

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
There are WAAAAAY better situations then 4.5:1 after the flop. Those are what the true pros are after. This why the Sklansky "All-In" strategy is effective to a degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really need to explain to you how bad this line of reasoning is?

[Kevin]

I remember reading his hand of the week article after being busted by Varkonyi. He knew that his AK was ahead of Q10, but, in reality he knew that he was vulnerable hot and cold with all of his chips on the line. When I think of his QQ laydown, I wonder if he was thinking about the AK vs Q10 play - and if that is what motivated his laydown.