Who re-raises the river here? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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razor

07-01-2004, 01:25 PM

A couple hands...

first one is straightforward until the end.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB checks,

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

River: (6.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero ???

Cap or Call?

This hand is a bit more interesting as I'm betting second pair and then get raised on the turn. Who 3-bets the river? Comments on my play on the rest of this hand is welcome.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, MP (poster) checks, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP folds, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero ???

Cap or Call?

chief444

07-01-2004, 01:33 PM

I would call both but I think the first one is a closer decision than the second. It is unlikely given your play that your opponent in hand one is expecting you to have the runner-runner flush and he may be 3-betting with a straight, smaller flush or even as little as top two pair. Actually now that I think about it more I may cap hand 1.

Bill Smith

07-01-2004, 01:40 PM

The 2nd one is particularly dangerous with both straight and flush possibilities, so that's an easy call. The 1st one is a bit trickier... what hands might UTG+1 limp preflop, and cold call to the river, that would beat you here? A8s or a slowplayed AKs are all I can think of. Without a read, I think the more likely scenario is a T9 or maybe a 2-pair. Capping is fine, calling is fine, I'd prefer the cap.

Chris Daddy Cool

07-01-2004, 02:23 PM

First hand there's really no logical 3betting hand the villian can have other than maybe T9 for a gutshot or something like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Since the flush came runner runner, he'd have a hard time believing you'd have flush if he had the straight, but also make ME think it'd be hard for him to have the flush since it came runner runner. I'm fine with just calling, but I understand capping. Even if he does have a flush it's no guarantee he has the nuts anyways, though A8 is the most logical holding if he does have one...

Hand two is a dangerous river putting in a flush and a straight on the board. I just call.

B Dids

07-01-2004, 02:27 PM

Both are pretty easy calls. You'll lose to hands that raise you here far too often to make it +EV to try and extract more bets.

nothumb

07-01-2004, 02:31 PM

I agree with just calling on hand 2 but for a different reason. First, I seriously doubt he made a straight here. Is he raising JQ when that 2 hits on the turn? The only hand I think he might have that just got better is A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

If I had to guess, though, I would say he has a better two pair, most likely KT, unless he's out of line. I call.

NT

Chris Daddy Cool

07-01-2004, 02:41 PM

almost everybody raises AK pf. i agree that a straight is unlikely, but the fact that there is a possible straight, flush, set and (as you said most likely) higher two pair out there makes 3betting crazy.

I would lean more towards a Kx flush or KT higher two pair here.

sfer

07-01-2004, 02:47 PM

Cap hand 1. Think how often you'll be shown some QJ or someother crappy 2-pair or slowplayed set, or T9 got there gutshot. You're behind Axs and Kxs. Cap.

Call hand 2. LL players love to play flopped sets like this dude.

razor

07-01-2004, 02:59 PM

Some even like to play Aces like this...

razor

07-01-2004, 02:59 PM

I still can't figure out how (or why) to make great reads when my opponents are playing these hands in this manner... Anyone is liable to do anything with anything at anytime.

I called both these hands, I was fairly certain I was good on the first hand and not quite so certain when I was raised on the second hand.

To be honest I didn't realize the flush & straight possibilities on Hand 2 until I made the initial post, largely because I didn't think UTG was raising the turn with a draw but rather a big K and I so didn't pay attention to those possibilities... so perhaps it would have been good if UTG had A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif to give me a good kick in the ass. I really should slow down my decision-making process a bit - although I am usually (so I think) right or close enough to right.

The Results...

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB checks,

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

River: (6.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB
Main Pot: 12.75 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.

Results below:
UTG+1 shows 6d Jd (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Hero shows Qs Ts (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.75 BB.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, MP (poster) checks, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP folds, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between Hero and UTG.

Results below:
Hero shows Td 9c (two pair, tens and nines).
UTG shows Ad Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB.

[i]Edit: Anyone thing check calling is better here or is that too wimpy?[i]

sfer

07-01-2004, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Anyone thing check calling is better here or is that too wimpy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Way too wimpy. You do NOT want the completed straight and flush draw to freeze up a TP hand into checking through on hand 2. Bet and call a raise.

EDIT:
[ QUOTE ]
I still can't figure out how (or why) to make great reads when my opponents are playing these hands in this manner... Anyone is liable to do anything with anything at anytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is experience and practice.

[ QUOTE ]
I really should slow down my decision-making process a bit - although I am usually (so I think) right or close enough to right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always take a couple of beats to decide or make sure when I play now. I used to not do this. It helps tremendously. And since I do it all of the time I think it gives nothing away.

bisonbison

07-01-2004, 04:10 PM

I really should slow down my decision-making process a bit - although I am usually (so I think) right or close enough to right.

This is one of the more important reasons why multi-tabling is bad.

All you have in poker is your decision-making skills, and every single time the action comes to you, you should be actively making decisions based on the entirety of what you know about your cards, the way the hand has developed, the players involved, and the odds.

A good habit in live play is looking left before you act. Obviously, it's helpful if your opponents indicate how they're gonna act, but it's also a good habit (even against the most stone-faced opponents) because it gives you another second to think, and that second is crucially important.

Anything you can do to enhance your window of thought at the table without killing the action vibe is EV+. Taking five seconds on every decision will tend to tighten people up. Taking a couple of beats on close river decisions will do nothing but help.