would anyone get away from this?

[C M Burns]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) $55 buy in

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO (t1745)
Button (t1155)
SB (t800)
<font color="C00000">Hero (t870)</font>
<font color="C00000">UTG (t2435)</font>
UTG+1 (t790)
MP1 (t1315)
MP2 (t890)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t100, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls t50.

Flop: (t225) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG bets t250, Hero raises to t770 (All-In), UTG calls t520.

Turn: (t1765) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1765) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1765

First off I see so many people min raise with all kinds of hands so this doesn't tell me much, i see many do this w/ draw type hands even this guy has min raised and folded post flop.

The only thing I think I could have done here was bet out and fold to a reraise, but that leaves me pretty short stacked but alive (and BB soon to be 100). but I was also woried that he may play back w/some hands I could beat, A4s, med pair, QJ, given his stack and he seemed a bit loose. I felt the check raise would get me more money when I was ahead. Given the stack sizes if he bets out with not much he may call based on the odds. So do you play it safe here and try to get away alive if beat or go for a bigger score if ahead, or any better ways to play this? Does anyone raise pre-flop? I felt I did not have enough chips.

[stupidsucker]

I think I may have bet the flop instead of checkraising, but it would have been the same result.

Did he have AA, KK, or QQ?

[DrPhysic]

Or the other two 8s.

The only chance you had was to fold pre-flop on the assumption that if he was a decent player (which may be a big assumption, but you were playing at $55), his opening hand from UTG probably had you beat preflop. AQo is one of Brunson's "Trouble Hands".

However, if you read him to be loose, as you indicated, you were not wrong in playing the AQo, and once the Q drops on the flop, you are trapped. No way out with TPTK.

I will note that my results have gotten a bit better since I got real skitzy about playing any of the trouble hands.

Doc

[Hood]

I can't see how you can fold PF here, unless you've got a *very* good read that he's tight (from your suggestion you need a read that he's loose to play this). He min-raised UTG, and you're on the SB so it's only an extra 50 in to a pot of 150. Unless he's got AA or QQ, surely you're getting odds here to call.

(perhaps odds is rather simplistic - I guess if he had KK, with AQ you can draw to an Ace, but if you hit a TPTK with a Q you don't know where you stand - but I think the point generally still stands).

[Pitcher]

Hi CM,

I don't see how you get away from this. Just nh on his part. You indicated you saw this player min-raise before and then get away from the hand post flop, so there is no way you can put him on a premium PP. Players use min raises in a variety of ways (I don't much like this play for reasons that have previously been discussed, at least at this time in the tourney) but what I have found is that most players use it to see a cheap flop with a small PP or to get more in the pot for a small/medium PP in case it hits. I am fine with no raise pre-flop because it disguises your hand. The raiser really has no idea what you have in this situation....and I think AQ is pretty strong. So, the only thing you might have done differently is bet out some small amount like 150...and see what happens. If you were then raised to 300, I might consider running. I would call an all in re-raise for sure.

Pitcher

[Jason Strasser]

I could be nuts, but I think this is a push/fold preflop spot. I don't particularly love the PF call. Granted, on the flop, its all in.

Back to preflop, its scary to go over the top of an UTG min raise, so I guess this hand is very opponent dependant.

[DrPhysic]

[ QUOTE ]
but if you hit a TPTK with a Q you don't know where you stand...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think thats the point.

It takes a better hand to open UTG than it does to open MP, or LP. What would a decent player have to open UTG? Any Pair, any AK, AQs, KQs, maybe QJs. Some play smaller suited connectors, I know. I don't. But AQo is kind of the top edge of the hands that are pretty marginal to open UTG, IMO.

The gap concept says: TPFAP p27: You need a better hand to play against someone who has already opened the betting than you would need to open yourself.

AQo is a nice opening hand on the button. I have to assume that the player UTG must have something better than that to have opened. Therefore, I HAVE NO GAP! And yes, unless I read him as loose, I can consider laying down AQo from the BB, even though I have a decent chance of beating the smaller pairs.

If I am going to play it, however, the one thing I don't do is call. Either fold, or raise to find out how strong he is. If you raise 100, and he calls, you can assume he has something probably as good or better than what you are holding. If he re-raises, you just learned what you wanted to know and lay it down with no further investment.

On the call, you are going to again get TPTK, and have to find out pronto if you are beaten or your hand is good. Therefore, I don't like the check raise on the flop. It commits you to too big a bite of the stack. If you raise pre-flop and get called, bet it right out on the flop. If you get raised, it's over, get out. If he calls again, you're still in the same shape, you don't know where you are at, but I'd be getting pretty suspicious.

And yes, I am looking for an excuse to not play Brunson's "trouble hands". They are AQo, AJo, ATo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo, and 98o. (He leaves out T9o, which is curious, but I read him to mean "any non-suited connector smaller than JTo").

In this case, I think you can either assume UTG has a better hand PF, or use a raise to get some more info.

Make any sense?

That is how I see C.M.'s hand. I am happy to have anyone show me the error of my ways, if I'm wrong.

Doc

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise 100, and he calls, you can assume he has something probably as good or better than what you are holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise 100 and he calls, you can assume that you just wasted $100.

Maybe you can rule out AA and KK if he calls, but this UTG min-raise is so odd that I still couldn't rule them out. In the case of AA-KK, his min-raise is a slowplay...and he may just call to continue his slowplay.

He'll likely call with any other hand (AJ, 88, KQ, A6s, AK), so you've really learned nothing.

I think its too early to reraise all your chips, so I'd call...then move all-in when the Q flops. If he has KK or AA, too bad.

You can't bet almost 1/8th of your stack pre-flop to get information.

As for the Gap Concept, you have to remember that you are in the BB and you are getting 3.5:1 on your call against a single opponent. Even if he has a better hand, you still probably have the odds to call.

Don't read into Brunson's touble hands too much either. He was talking about ring games where misplaying AQ could cost him $30k. In this case, we are a shortish stack in a SNG. If you are worried about losing your whole stack, you shouldn't be playing in SNGs.

[poboys]

Min raises UTG by most sane players mean AA, KK, QQ, AK/AKs, and maybe (AQs/o). In all cases you are behind (of course except AQo) and in over half of those cases you are dominated.

I don't see how you can push preflop against that? Even if only 1/2 the time they have one of these hands, it's negative -EV.

FWIW, I'd call the bet PF, lead out with a 75% pot bet and fold to a re-raise.

[Jason Strasser]

If, according to you, the ONLY hands a person min raising UTG can be [ QUOTE ]
AA, KK, QQ, AK/AKs, and maybe (AQs/o).

[/ QUOTE ], what kind of advice are you giving to [ QUOTE ]
call the bet PF, lead out with a 75% pot bet and fold to a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to quote myself: [ QUOTE ]
I could be nuts, but I think this is a push/fold preflop spot. I don't particularly love the PF call. Granted, on the flop, its all in.

Back to preflop, its scary to go over the top of an UTG min raise, so I guess this hand is very opponent dependant.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I say to go all in over the top? I said this is push/fold depending on the opponent. I have definitely folded in this spot many times preflop to tight UTG min raises.

[poboys]

[ QUOTE ]
If, according to you, the ONLY hands a person min raising UTG can be [ QUOTE ]
AA, KK, QQ, AK/AKs, and maybe (AQs/o).

[/ QUOTE ], what kind of advice are you giving to [ QUOTE ]
call the bet PF, lead out with a 75% pot bet and fold to a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously a read on the player is very important (which you mentioned in your original post). Without a read, I'd probably fold that early on. What I was trying to say was that if I called, I'd bet out 75% of the pot and fold to a re-raise. After re-reading my post, clearly I did not communicate that well at all.

[ QUOTE ]
And to quote myself: [ QUOTE ]
I could be nuts, but I think this is a push/fold preflop spot. I don't particularly love the PF call. Granted, on the flop, its all in.

Back to preflop, its scary to go over the top of an UTG min raise, so I guess this hand is very opponent dependant.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I say to go all in over the top? I said this is push/fold depending on the opponent. I have definitely folded in this spot many times preflop to tight UTG min raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed you meant you'd push pre-flop not push post-flop. I am not challenging your post to say you are wrong, rather, to try and understand your logic.

[tewall]

Given your description of the guy's min-raise, I like the way you played it, but I don't undestand why you'd want to get away from the hand. You've got TPTK and aren't likely to get a better shot. I think you've got a perfect hand to c/r with, assuming you think it's likely the guy will bet.

[Hood]

Thanks for the detailed reply...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but if you hit a TPTK with a Q you don't know where you stand...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think thats the point.

It takes a better hand to open UTG than it does to open MP, or LP. What would a decent player have to open UTG? Any Pair, any AK, AQs, KQs, maybe QJs. Some play smaller suited connectors, I know. I don't. But AQo is kind of the top edge of the hands that are pretty marginal to open UTG, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes the presumption that he's a decent player. Personally, the fact that he min-raised UTG indicates he's probably not. He could have medium or low pocket pairs, Ax, Kx.

Most of the time you hit top pair you're going to have the best kicker. Only AK, AA and KK will have a better hand when you hit. All other hands - and that accounts for a lot, taking in to consideration pairs are less likely holdings probability-wise - will have worse kickers. Which means you've got a good chance of doubling up.

I also don't give credit to the fact that he's UTG. Bad players don't consider their position when thinking of raising. (this is all presuming that I don't have a read on the player to be better than average)

Basically, I'm saying just calling here to see the flop is cheap. Most of the time you won't hit and you fold, not investing much. The times you hit pair, most of the time you'll out kick your opponent. This can be very profitable. There's more chance you'll have the better hand than the worse, even considerating a very short list of hands he'd min-raise with.

[ QUOTE ]

The gap concept says: TPFAP p27: You need a better hand to play against someone who has already opened the betting than you would need to open yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]

As Phil Van Sexton pointed out, you're on the BB so you're not facing a cold raise. You've only got to put in 50 to a pot of 150. I think this is different to the examples in TPFAP.

[ QUOTE ]

AQo is a nice opening hand on the button. I have to assume that the player UTG must have something better than that to have opened. Therefore, I HAVE NO GAP! And yes, unless I read him as loose, I can consider laying down AQo from the BB, even though I have a decent chance of beating the smaller pairs.

If I am going to play it, however, the one thing I don't do is call. Either fold, or raise to find out how strong he is. If you raise 100, and he calls, you can assume he has something probably as good or better than what you are holding. If he re-raises, you just learned what you wanted to know and lay it down with no further investment.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think raising 100 finds out much. He's already comitted 100 to the pot - he'll be facing a call of 100 with 250 in the pot. Presuming he wasn't bluffing with his initial raise, is reraising 100 going to help define your hand?

I think if you're raising, it's got be a push, and I do'nt like AQ that much to risk my stack.

[ QUOTE ]

And yes, I am looking for an excuse to not play Brunson's "trouble hands". They are AQo, AJo, ATo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo, and 98o. (He leaves out T9o, which is curious, but I read him to mean "any non-suited connector smaller than JTo").


[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree with all these hands except AQo. Perhaps I need a couple of hands where I lose my stack with it before I respect that /images/graemlins/smile.gif But I think AQ is in a different class to AJ on down. As I say above, only a 3 hands you are a dog against if you hit TPTK. As you're on the small blind, paying another 50 to see if you make top pair could be worth it. And if you do make your winning hand, you could be looking to double up.

[DrPhysic]

I am still thinking about this, and may make another post. but...

I think from the thoughtful and disparate responses, we can at very least credit Mr. Burns for catching a very interesting hand, which would have been a challenge to play when not having an hour to think about it.

Doc

[stupidsucker]

So... what did he have?

[DrPhysic]

C.M. Burns had AQQ88.

He has yet to tell us whether he won.

My best guess is that UTG made the min raise with a medium pair, called the flop all in on pure balls (and a guess that C.M. didn't have the Q), and drew out with quad 8s.

D

[durron597]

Making a minraise with AA/KK/QQ is not that uncommon - more money in the pot but still relatively likely that someone might pop him back for a reraise; that's what I would guess he has. Given that our Hero has AQ, I would guess that the villian probably had KK, or maybe AA.

[Jman28]

I'm gonna guess Q8s. I honestly don't think skill level goes up from 33s to 55s having played in both.

[C M Burns]

Quite a variety of replies, thanks. Of course, I did loose as is often the case in these posts. He had KK and I didn't improve.

I think some of you are over estimating the level of play here, in a tougher game I think a preflop raise would be right to see where I stand, but here I would get called by a variety of hands. And I stick by my statment that the min raise isn't very informative, I just see it too much in this situation. When it scares me is when the limits are big, and either a big stack (who needn't fear a caught steal) or a small stack, who pot comits himself, does it.

Also, I think this is a time when Doyle would say the trouble hands become big hands, when the limits are high and players are short, so AQo 8 handed and less than 20 BB is prob ok.

And my main question is more of where you put the line between aggresivley gaining chips and staying alive. Given I felt there is a reasonable chance I could double if ahead, is it more profitable to chance busting out or to stay alive given my stack realative to the blinds.