Comments on this hand?

[ddubois]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 (t1000)
CO (t650)
Button (t990)
<font color="C00000">SB (t985)</font>
BB (t985)
UTG (t1405)
<font color="C00000">Hero (t985)</font>
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t75) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t45</font>, BB folds, Hero calls t45, UTG+2 folds, Button folds.

Turn: (t165) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

River: (t365) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t200</font>, Hero calls t200.

Final Pot: t765
<font color="green">Main Pot: t765 (t765), between SB and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (t765).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows 8d Tc (two pair, tens and eights).
Hero shows 9c Kc (one pair, nines).
Outcome: SB wins t765. </font>

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Raising the flop would have been a good idea. An aven better idea is to fold this hand preflop though. K9s from UTG+1 in a ten handed game is a fold in my opinion.

[Hood]

PF: Limping UTG+1 with K9s is way, way too loose for my liking. I'd rarely play this from the button. I wouldn't play A9s UTG with 10 players.

F: You've got top pair second top kicker, and there's a flush and straight draw on. I think calling this is a bad move, I'd raise him T200.

T/R: I think you were too passive here, but it was the play on the flop that lead to that. I think if you'd raised on the flop the T/R wouldn't have happened.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Fold that trash preflop in EP.

Once you were in the hand, you played it way too passively. On the flop, raise to about 175 with so many possible draws on the board and your hand being vulnerable to overcards other than a K.

[Jason Strasser]

This is horrible. Absolutely terrible.

1) Let me echo everyone else, this is an easy fold. KJs is a fold for me in EP. K9s is trash.

2) So you get the perfect flop, and you call? What's your plan if an over card comes? If a flush card comes? Raise this flop!

3) Turn is atrocious. Why are you calling? What do you have your opponent on? This is passive.

4) The river isn't terrible, given the rest of your play. I think you have to call.

This is loose passive. You will not make money playing like this. I'm grumpy today, so excuse the harshness, but this hand was butchered, and you need to know it.

[EverettKings]

/\
|| What he said.
||

[ddubois]

Hero in this hand wasn't me, it was Frozen_Fish.

I didn't understand his play either. It was early in the tournament, so I can't imagine he had a read that would cause this play, but maybe he had a read on this person from prior tournaments?

[Jason Strasser]

It doesn't change a thing who it was. IMO this is not a way to play this hand. Maybe he did have a read, I still think K9s is a muck. I suppose players with excellent post flop moves can make this hand a winner, however I don't bother because too often you will have to make very hard decisions with a hand that is not very good.

[ddubois]

I guess I should apologize. I knew this hand history would be flamed, and I would be able to whip out my "GOTCHA!" response. No one likes being trapped like this, so it was kind of mean. But I did have a point in here somewhere. I think.... Oh yeah, now I remember.

I see on this forum the vocal and unending promotion of aggressive play. I see the same on other forums as well, like the Small Stakes forums; it's all "raise raise raise raise!". I wonder if we as a 2+2 community overdo it sometimes. For examle, look at jason's complete SNG report. That's a bit maniacal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And then I see a very strong player in a series of tournaments play a mixture of passive and aggressive play with very good results. He does way more calling down than anyone in this forum would advocate. Obviously as can be seen in this hand, it doesn't work 100% of the time, but overall it must be working for him. I assume this is what getting reads and being a thinking player can allow you to do.

[Jason Strasser]

I actually contacted Frozen via PM about this hand. He said he had certain notes which would indicate that this guy is "fishy-moron" or "fishy-aggressive". I think that if this hand was posted by Frozen, he would've told us his read, which does make a difference. Against your average player this move is horrible, and the way you posted it, how were we supposed to know anything about his opponent?

I know you are trying to be cute and all, and I see the point you are trying to make, but the bottom line is that poker does not come down to any fixed rules, or any fixed decisions. What it does come down to is that good players get it done in the long run.

Frozen gets it done, his results speak for themselves. I think you should post some of your hands, with your thought process, and that will improve your game. What you specifically were trying to do with this thread, well I have no idea.

You got me, I'm a fish. Is that what you want to hear?

Edit: My sng report of the bubble and onwards was crazy. I did do a lot of things I normally wouldn't do, and that was basically me trying to adjust to my players in a way that I thought was most profitable.

[Pitcher]

Hi Guys,

Frozen_Fish made this play? Play with him practically everyday and never saw him make this poor a play....never. Jason is right. Total butcher job. He can't have a read on 10 players. If someone has something, they are gonna club him, simple. There are no magic wizards out there that can make this into a consistent winner...sorry (with all deference to my favorite wizard...Doublesuited...)

Pitcher

[ddubois]

Second hand at http://www.tightpoker.com/replays/user_frozen2.txt
He did go on to win the tournament too.

[Pitcher]

Tricky post. Didn't say you weren't telling the truth

Don't like it at all.

Pitcher

[tewall]

I was thinking as you posted it that the way it was played didn't look too bad provided the adversary was very aggressive. The problem with raising is you limit your gain to whatever is in the pot whereas if you just call, the aggressive player may keep coming at you.

Another advantage to the way he played this hand is he limits the size of his loss if he's behind. He doesn't have a hand which is good enough to stand a great deal of heat, but it can stand a bit. So if he can keep the amount he has to showdown to a certain amount, he doesn't mind.

If he raises, he may lower the equity of the hand because it becomes no better than a bluff against a player who won't call. If he does raise, and the person calls, if he's going to keep betting he's pretty much committed his stack to a TPSK hand. If he raises, the guy calls, and he checks the next round, he's inviting the guy to take the hand away from him.

Now if the guy is a fishy caller instead of a fishy aggressive player, then raising makes sense.