WTF do I do now? how to play the turn w/ an assload of outs?

[Tyler Durden]

Pot Limit Home Game w/ a $200 max buy-in and blinds of $1/$2. Lots of good action and many bad players.

I have about $550 on the table when this hand comes up.

UTG limps and so does the cutoff. I limp on the button w/ A3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Both blinds are in. 5 way flop, unraised pot.

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Blinds check, UTG checks, CO bets $7 into a pot of $10. I raise it to $24. Blinds fold and UTG calls $24 cold. CO calls also.

A word about these two: UTG is an A2C from any position kind of player, takes hands much too far and is capable of showing down anything. He is fairly passive though. Loose as a goose and passive. Also loose postflop.

CO is also a little too loose. He's tricky and is capable of making good reads and excellent laydowns.

I wasn't too thrilled after these guys called my flop raise.

Anyway, the three of us saw the turn with $82 in the pot.

The turn card is the 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, giving me the nut flush draw. Both players check to me.

Check or bet? If I bet, how much? UTG had about $150 on the table after the flop, and CO had about $400.

Thanks for any comments/thoughts.

[Ulysses]

Aces up and nut flush draw? Pot it.

[Nemesis]

I'd check it probably. Especially if you have agressive opponents (although that's questionable from your description of the game.) If a flush comes up not many people suspect it because of the runner runner for it. If it does hit you may get a big pot off of somebody trying to bluff you. Same with your other outs if they hit.

[cornell2005]

CO's tendancies, stack, flat call, and position here make his play a bit scary. a tricky player wouldnt flat call with that many hands you can beat, especially considering the poor player flat called between you and him. if your image is pretty solid, id assume he would raise or fold any ace. futher, the CO doesnt seem he would draw to a gutshot in his situation from what youve told us about him.

that being said, id still bet it, with your and CO's deep stacks and your full house outs making the decision.

thoughts? judging by your wsop finish you are a better player than I am (for now /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

[Richie Rich]

I understand your logic here, but have to agree with El Diablo on this one. Our hero is very likely to have the best hand on the turn, with an opportunity to make the nut flush on the river. You have to bet the pot and make the (likely) fish pay in order to see the river.

At this point, I'd say one of the villains has A-x, and perhaps the other has something like pair with a gutshot str8 draw. I wouldn't want to give them any free cards, even with position on them. Supposing (and hopefully) a diamond falls on the river, I doubt they could put you on the runner-runner flush since our hero already raised on the flop.

One final point... Hero already has position/control in this hand, and I think he should keep it going. If he checks on the turn and a non-diamond falls on the river, what is our hero to do if villain goes all-in? Did the opponent just make a better two pair, have a set on the flop, bluff strong with one pair, etc.? By betting the pot on the turn, I think it would be easier for our hero to "gauge" his enemy's bet at the end.

[Nemesis]

this is Pot limit... so an opponent can't cost him ALL his chips to call. Keeping that pot smaller was one of the things that makes me want to check =/

[Richie Rich]

(Hate when I skim over important details like that)

Nevertheless, I'm still confident that our hero is in the lead on the turn (with a draw to the nuts), and should charge any second-best hands the max to see the river. Without the flush draw, I think a check might be good in order to induce a bluff from opponent(s) on the river.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
(Hate when I skim over important details like that)

Nevertheless, I'm still confident that our hero is in the lead on the turn (with a draw to the nuts), and should charge any second-best hands the max to see the river. Without the flush draw, I think a check might be good in order to induce a bluff from opponent(s) on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not as sure as you are that he is ahead of the CO at this point. (maybe close to 50/50) But I still advocate a bet, as he probably has the best hand just enough, but more importantly his draws will get paid off enough times on the river handsomly if he hits and indeed the CO was ahead.

[mauisupaman]

Tyler, many seem to advocate betting the turn here. Granted you have A's up albeit not top two with the nut flush draw, but even loose players are capable of holding a set of 3's of 5's here. You made a relatively big raise on the flop and were cold called by UTG plus the original opener.

In my opinion, I don't see any problem with checking the turn to see the action of my two opponents. There aren't many free cards you're afraid of on the river. Betting the turn will allow either of your opponents to CR all in. I would prefer to keep this hand small.

I would bet the river if unimproved and checked to or of course if a diamond hit.

[Nemesis]

Yay... that's what i would do too. I think it all depends on if this person is a check-raiser or not. You'd hate to get hit like that and have to lay it down when you could have checked/called for the same cost. *edit* maybe i'm being weak here, but i think it gives you the best risk v. return out of the options available.

[mauisupaman]

I have to agree with you on that line of play.

[Diplomat]

Dude. Pot it. Easy.

-Diplomat

[Tyler Durden]

The dilemma I was faced with here was that I was pretty sure I no longer had the best hand after the turn card hit, but how sure was I, and with all my outs, could betting be so wrong?

I really didn't like the 7d hitting on the turn b/c one of the hands I put UTG on was 64 and the turn just made him the nuts if that's what he had. As for CO, I was pretty sure he had me beat on the flop also. 55 was his most likely holding, I thought. He'd probably fold Ax to my flop raise.

Keeping the pot small here is an important concern, b/c I don't want to be faced with a big bet on the end.

After I weighed all the circumstances though I couldn't resist betting, b/c I had so many outs if I was behind and I couldn't be 100% sure that I was behind.

So I bet $50 into a pot of $82.

Then UTG checkraised all-in for $100 more. That was the kind of thing I saw coming a mile away, yet I couldn't dodge it. Then CO pondered for a bit and said "this hand just got all f---ed up." Then he called. Now I had an easy call. At this point I knew UTG had 64.

I stood up from my chair and was praying for a diamond. But I didn't get one. Instead the river was another Ace. Well that's good too. CO checked to me and I thought for a bit and bet $100. He thought for a while and said "I don't see how I can have the best hand anymore." Then he mucked.

As I turned my hand up I said to UTG "I think I got lucky." And I did, b/c he had 64.

CO? He had 42 for the flopped nuts.

Checking the turn seems pretty obvious now, even w/o the results.

Thanks for comments/replies.

[DcifrThs]

if i'm thinking that the two players are who i think they are then, tyler, you have to check the turn w/ the plan of calling the river pot bet.

this isn't close and its because of the intangibles that great posters can't see from these two. the CO calling on the flop like that is a BIG BIG sign. he says, "look at me i flopped a monster." if you bet here you've commited yourself and your stack to the pot and only a diamond, ace or 3 will save your ass here. 13 outs in 46 cards getting around 2:1 or so ain't worth it (you get 2.538:1 on your draw and need more than that to call, $75 pot +$50 bet= 125...you'll likely have to call another 100 or so..) b/c if you bet, a LOT of chips are goin in the pot. and it'll be when you're behind. i'd be more hesitant to bet for fear of UTG than for fear of the CO b/c UTG may or may not have hit but if he did hit its clearly the nuts. i'd check b/c i'd fear the CO having either the flopped nuts, 55, or the less likely 33. if i bet here and UTG calls, CO is potting it and thats a lot to call, especially when you have such a good chance of winning (13/46)

so, i check here. in addition to all the above, you maximize your loss here b/c you can fold to a bet and a raise and simply call the river bet unraised.

ni han.

but seriously, you suck /images/graemlins/wink.gif ... see you tonight, man.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
CO's tendancies, stack, flat call, and position here make his play a bit scary. a tricky player wouldnt flat call with that many hands you can beat, especially considering the poor player flat called between you and him. if your image is pretty solid, id assume he would raise or fold any ace. futher, the CO doesnt seem he would draw to a gutshot in his situation from what youve told us about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

the cutoffs call here states monster a very large portion of the time.

[ QUOTE ]

that being said, id still bet it, with your and CO's deep stacks and your full house outs making the decision.


[/ QUOTE ]

uh, you have 4 outs to a boat but 9 to a flush...therefore you're "outs" for the flush are more than for the boat...and a flush still beats a straight /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

thoughts? judging by your wsop finish you are a better player than I am (for now /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly you have not played with tyler...he blows...i made a theoretical $20 when i bet he'd make it past the 1st day of the WSOP and alomst lost (i should have b/c he got lucky)...see, you probably do play better ...

ok ok...sorry yaser, thats enough SH*T i'll give you for now...i just get so much crap at that game i gotta take it out on somebody lol...peace out buddy

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, I don't see any problem with checking the turn to see the action of my two opponents. There aren't many free cards you're afraid of on the river. Betting the turn will allow either of your opponents to CR all in. I would prefer to keep this hand small.

[/ QUOTE ]

ding...cigar.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude. Pot it. Easy.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

it only seems easy b/c its on paper...its a check in this game against those two.

-Barron

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]


the cutoffs call here states monster a very large portion of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]
we agree then, that was the point i was trying to make

[ QUOTE ]

that being said, id still bet it, with your and CO's deep stacks and your full house outs making the decision.[ QUOTE ]


uh, you have 4 outs to a boat but 9 to a flush...therefore you're "outs" for the flush are more than for the boat...and a flush still beats a straight /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


yea, i meant having those extra 4 boat outs made the decision for me between betting and checking. i was including the flush outs in assessment

haha my post was strange now that i look back at it, i argued for checking yet said id bet anyway (incorrectly)

[ML4L]

Hey tyler,

My first instinct was to bet, so I'm sure that that's what I would have done at the table, but after thinking for a minute, I'm almost certain that a check is best. You have nut outs and a hand that you seem to feel isn't best, but that you probably want to showdown. I'd take a free card. If you get counterfeited or the board gets worse (e.g. a 4 comes off), you can probably muck/check behind. And, your backdoor flush will be tough to spot and likely be paid off by a set/straight

The real key is that, by virtue of your flush draw, you're going to end up pot-sticking yourself if you get check-raised. If you were guranteed to not get check-raised, pot it. But, it seems to me that you think both players are capable of check-raising here and that you don't have the best hand. If that's the case, don't let the allure of your strong, yet second-best, holding tempt you into betting.

Again, I KNOW that I would have bet. But, thinking about the hand, I'd kick myself (and probably post it just like you did).

Good post.

ML4L

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
The dilemma I was faced with here was that I was pretty sure I no longer had the best hand after the turn card hit, but how sure was I, and with all my outs, could betting be so wrong?

I really didn't like the 7d hitting on the turn b/c one of the hands I put UTG on was 64 and the turn just made him the nuts if that's what he had. As for CO, I was pretty sure he had me beat on the flop also. 55 was his most likely holding, I thought. He'd probably fold Ax to my flop raise.

Keeping the pot small here is an important concern, b/c I don't want to be faced with a big bet on the end.

After I weighed all the circumstances though I couldn't resist betting, b/c I had so many outs if I was behind and I couldn't be 100% sure that I was behind.

So I bet $50 into a pot of $82.

Then UTG checkraised all-in for $100 more. That was the kind of thing I saw coming a mile away, yet I couldn't dodge it. Then CO pondered for a bit and said "this hand just got all f---ed up." Then he called. Now I had an easy call. At this point I knew UTG had 64.

I stood up from my chair and was praying for a diamond. But I didn't get one. Instead the river was another Ace. Well that's good too. CO checked to me and I thought for a bit and bet $100. He thought for a while and said "I don't see how I can have the best hand anymore." Then he mucked.

As I turned my hand up I said to UTG "I think I got lucky." And I did, b/c he had 64.

CO? He had 42 for the flopped nuts.

Checking the turn seems pretty obvious now, even w/o the results.

Thanks for comments/replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a sec..you seem like a good player Tyler. i'm assuming the people you play with are also somewhat skilled.

but they limp in with 46 and 42??? (and 46 utg to boot????)

to me, these guys would be considered fish. am i wrong? if so, what am i missing here???

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot Limit Home Game w/ a $200 max buy-in and blinds of $1/$2. Lots of good action and many bad players.

I have about $550 on the table when this hand comes up.

UTG limps and so does the cutoff. I limp on the button w/ A3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Both blinds are in. 5 way flop, unraised pot.

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Blinds check, UTG checks, CO bets $7 into a pot of $10. I raise it to $24. Blinds fold and UTG calls $24 cold. CO calls also.

A word about these two: UTG is an A2C from any position kind of player, takes hands much too far and is capable of showing down anything. He is fairly passive though. Loose as a goose and passive. Also loose postflop.

CO is also a little too loose. He's tricky and is capable of making good reads and excellent laydowns.

I wasn't too thrilled after these guys called my flop raise.

Anyway, the three of us saw the turn with $82 in the pot.

The turn card is the 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, giving me the nut flush draw. Both players check to me.

Check or bet? If I bet, how much? UTG had about $150 on the table after the flop, and CO had about $400.

Thanks for any comments/thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

btw- when utg calls $24 cold, i would put him on a set. i would put CO with A2 or A4 for top pair with a gutshot draw.

i would have check/called on the turn. and if i didn't get my boat on the river, i would fold to any large bet.

obviously i was WAAAAAYYYY off on my reads since i'm not used to people limping in with 24. (i play $25 NL.) but i would have done the same thing on the turn/river.

is my thinking about the turn/river in this situation good or bad?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
to me, these guys would be considered fish. am i wrong? if so, what am i missing here???

[/ QUOTE ]

this is why i responded with the fact that its hard to know what to do on paper...

the guys may be "fish" in that they play lots of hands, but they are actually pretty good postflop players. its like if we told a good player to play below his ideal limits and to just start playing every hand but then make the best of it post flop. some of the "loose fish" in this game are actually decent players.

-Barron

[bunky9590]

Hey Ty,
Heres the way I see it.

Bet hands with no outs and/or redraws (you can toss them to the raise)

With position I would check this hand with the boat load of outs. You can make a case for potting it with the intention of pushing after a raise. But for my money , I make them think and check it right back at them here. If they have a monster and I hit my hand, you can still get the money in on the river.

Gregg