VERY INTERESTING HAND.... how would you play it???

[snowbank]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

MP2 (t2915)
CO (t930)
Button (t1775)
SB (t1340)
Hero (t1815)
UTG (t1820)
UTG+1 (t1685)
MP1 (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t120) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets t60, UTG calls t60, Button calls t60, SB calls t60.

Turn: (t360) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets t90, Button calls t90, SB folds, Hero calls t90.

River: (t630) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG bets t90, Button folds, Hero raises to t250, UTG calls t160.

Final Pot: t1130

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 7d 7s (three of a kind, sevens).
UTG shows 9c 9d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins t1130. </font>

[Jman28]

I think you played it fairly well.

I wouldn't bet this flop into that many people simply because there are so many draws that will get them to call, and someone may already have you beat with a ten or two pair. I know that you want to make the draws pay, but someone with a ten might do that, and if you are up against a flush draw and an open ended straight draw, you easily could get drawn out. But you only bet 60. Not a disaster.

I like the call on the turn. You have a few outs, plus they may be semibluffing.

On the river, it's a tough one. If you are worried he's trying to pick up the pot, you just call and beat his missed draw. I think I like the bet because he could easily pay you off with two pair or a ten, but I'm not sure.

I guess he is unlikely to have bet the turn with a gut shot (89) and is unlikely to have called preflop with 42 or 82.

Yeah, on second thought, I am sure I like the bet. Well done.

What do you do if he raises?

[gergery]

I check/fold this on flop.

With a pocket pair and only a backdoor straight and flush you are highly unlikely to improve. With 3 opponents and an unraised pot its highly likely that some combination of flush or straight draw, two pair, trips, a T (or even JJ-88 as it turns out) is out there. So there’s a good chance you are beaten but a reasonable chance you have the best hand -- but a very good chance you’ll get called (esp. with a halfpot size bet). Best plan is probably check fold this early in tourney when you really need to bet ~150 or so to try to win the pot. But a reasonably alternative is overbetting the pot slightly and checkfold if called, or if you want to get very aggressive, checkraising the pot. That way you find out where you are vs. set or T and the draws should fold.

--Greg

[AtlBrvs4Life]

I wouldn't bet the flop, but the biggest mistake is not folding on the turn. I'm definately check folding the turn. You were just lucky to hit your two outer.

[snowbank]

You said, "the biggest mistake is not folding on the turn. I'm definately check folding the turn. You were just lucky to hit your two outer." First off, I had 6 outs. Don't forget to look at the gutshot straight draw if I hit the 4 as well. So I basically close to the same odds as if I had an open-ended straight draw. Sure, the 90 bet was a decent size bet, but with 630 in the pot if I call 90, my odds are not bad at all, even without factoring in implied NL odds.

[bonanz]

i don't think this hand is very interesting at all...

[AtlBrvs4Life]

My fault. I read your post quickly and completely missed that. Even with the extra outs, the call on the turn is still close. You have 6 outs giving you 6.7:1 odds of hitting on the river, and the pot is giving you 7:1 odds. In addition, you could be drawing dead to your set if someone has a 4, or you could possibly split if someone has one of the other two sevens and a 4 hits.

[snowbank]

Yes, it was a very close call. Odds were definitely close, without factoring in the NL implied odds I thought it would certainly be worth my while if I hit because the guys were betting each time without a problem and if I hit, I would raise and they would be too pot committed to fold, paying me off, which is what ended up happening. Again, like you said with the possibility someone had the 4, which is why it is kind of a complex hand because there's so much people could have and so many things could happen to change the outcome. If the bet on the turn was like 120 I would not have called.

[bonanz]

nope, didnt do it for me, still a boring hand without much to it

[skierdude1000]

not much to think about here... your bet on the flop isn't correct and neither was your call on the turn. Easy lay down to a flop or turn bet, you did get lucky; 4% chance to hit on the turn from that flop and 15% chance to hit on the river

[Jason Strasser]

I'm going to disagree with nearly every response here.

First of all, this hand is not boring. And posting to tell us that the hand is boring is not productive. We really don't care that you think its boring. Usually its the situations like this, that appear usual are the most helpful in improving ones game.

I do not think a flop bet is bad. I would've made it a little larger, but I think that you can assume that a ten or better will call or raise, and the rest of the hands will fold. I like picking up small pots like this, and this is not a bad flop for 77 at all. On the turn, after the call, I shut it down. Which you did. Your opponent made a very small bet, and there was another call. You had 5 or 6 outs, depending on whether there was a flushdraw out there. If you count implied odds, this is a fine call. I really do not see why people think this call is so awful?

The river was played perfectly.

This hand was not boring, and I think there are some very interesting choices throughtout it. If you say, "nice hand, great job hitting the 2-outer", I think you are wrong.

[bonanz]

You’re right my post was not productive, but i made it strictly because of the fact that the topic was "VERY INTERESTING HAND." BAM in my face, it did catch my attention and boy was i disappointed...that's all. My intention was not that its bad to ask for help or a hand review or to say that play was bad or that it was an easy hand or whatever, but that topic caught my eye and i was expecting more...

as far as play it was fine to me...the guy with 9's played it poorly. But our hero took a stab on the flop, maybe could have bet a little more maybe. Got callers. Checked the turn ready to give up. Assuming nobody had a 4 or 2 diamonds, the villain's bet allowed him to call. and hitting your outs on the river is always nice and the check raise was a given....

The original poster had an idea pretty much. I notice newer posters tend to post hands where they hit their draws etc. my boring comment was in response to the topic in relation to the actual hand, had the topic been "how would you play" or "how did I do" I would have said nothing. I was really expecting an exceptional hand.

regards,
bonanz

[Pitcher]

Hi All,

Not a boring hand. I don't like the way it was played very much. 1st. I would have come out with a larger flop bet to try to take the pot right now. Even if someone has a 10 they might laydown (unlikely, I know, and hard to say without some sort of read) if they have a lousy kicker. It puts the pocket 99's in a bad spot. UTG played this completely wrong. That should have been an immediate reraise at which point you can throw your hand away. When he came out with a small bet on the turn, I think you were right to take a shot. Of course, the river was fine.

To me though, the reason you even had a chance to win the pot is due to poor play on the part of your opponent. Isn't that how it usually is?


Pitcher

[steeser]

I also think it's interesting hand. I like the bet on the flop, although like someone else said a little larger would have been better. The turn check and call is good as it's a very small bet relative to the pot, and you are closing the action.

The river is the toughest and most interesting part of the hand. I probably don't check here, as that is the type of card that most players will check behind. I would have bet out instead of check raising, but in this case it probably got you the most. But when you checked, your opponent bet small, and you raised, I wonder what you would have done had he re-raised (all-in especially). I would think fold...

[Jason Strasser]

I think I would call.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I think if you're going to play this hand aggressively on the flop, you have to make draws fold. By only betting 60, you're giving the first caller 3-1, which, while not on draw value alone is good enough to call, any additional overcard outs will make up the difference. So if you bet the flop, you really have to make it pot-size.

On the turn, you have 5 clean outs (you can be relatively sure 98 isn't out there), but you should have reasonable impled odds when you hit. It's a thin call, but reasonable.

[snowbank]

Thanks for the good feedback on the hand Jason. What are your thoughts on this... My reason for betting small is so if I get re-raised most of the guys Im playing against will only raise the minimum. So for example, if I bet 20 and am up against an A-10, if I get raised it will probably be to 40, which I would call. If I bet big trying to pick it up, if I'm going against top pair and get raised I'll probly fold it. Obviously I would always like to fold there, but I wouldn't know he had that hand then. What are your thoughts on that? Do you agree with my reasoning, or still say put out a large bet there and hope to close out everyone if there is no 10 paired?

[Jman28]

If you will look back at my response to the initial post, you will see that I was quite close in opinion to Jason. I must be learning how to play poker. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jason Strasser]

I think I'd agree with Pitcher in that you should make a real raise. A tiny bet means nothing at all, and smart opponents will semi-bluff, and may even raise with hands you beat. I would bet 100-125 on this flop, and fold to any sort of raise. I think if someone raises a real bet, you can fold comfortably. But a real bet will also assure yourself the pot most of the time.

[snowbank]

If I check/fold on flop, that's basic ABC poker. Nothing wrong with that at all! I like to try to stay unreadable, mix up my play. I can check fold all day long, but sooner or later I'm going to have to make some plays. Now, I didn't think I would win the pot there with the 60 bet. I thought someone might have a flush draw or pair of 10's. I thought I would have 1 caller on the flop. That dodn't quite work out, but I like to try and switch up my play from ABC. You agree at all or no? Interested in your thoughts.

[snowbank]

Was thinking of a different hand when I posted the above response. (Another hand I had bet 20) A real hand raises and I fold regardless, I definitely agree. Where it gets real interesting is the turn. Where there are 4 people in the pot, possible flush draws, TPTK's. Now my check on the turn was not a weakness, as I think someone mentioned, but absolutely not. I knew I just increased my odds of winning the pot, and I had 2 options. I could either semibluff with my 5-6 outs, or I could check it and act like I was weak, which I guess at that point I feel I do not have the best hand, but could end up hurting someone big on the river if my hand hits. I went with the check. Do you feel the check on the turn was ok based on my reasoning? Also, if you semi-bluff the turn what do you think is the proper amount?

[snowbank]

I thought the only way a 4 would have been involved was if someone had a 4 of diamonds along with another diamond. The reason I think this is because the flop bet would have pushed any 4 out of there. Unless of course the small blind had a straight draw with the 4, but I didn't think there was a chance for any other possible involvement with a 4. What do you think?

[snowbank]

I agree with you Pitcher that my opponent played poorly and payed me off nicely. However, as far as knowing I would be pushing a 9-9 out of the pot with a bigger flop bet, I obviously know after the fact, but no one would know he had a 9-9 at the time. Not disagreeing that I could have possibly bet bigger trying to steal pot on the flop though. You said you didn't like the way I played it. Is this just because of the flop bet being smaller than you would have liked or something else as well? Do you try and buy those pots every time? Real curious. Thanks for the first response.

[Jason Strasser]

After making the bet on the flop and getting called, I am ready to toss this hand. I think the only way you could make the call is if someone priced you in to draw to your 5 or 6 outs. This is not a good enough draw IMO to semi bluff. I think you should normally check/fold, unless you have the odds to draw, which in this case you did. If someone had bet 200, you obviously fold. Once you get called on the flop, twice, you must play your hand like a draw, because it will not win the pot typically unimproved.

[snowbank]

Yes, definitely a good post you made up there. Good line of thinking. I forgot to respond to your question up there. You asked what would happen if I get raised. I'm not sure if you are talking flop or river, probably river, but I'll cover both just in case. If I get raised on the flop I am folding. If I get raised on the river I am calling or pushing all in. The reason is I really doubt any 4 is out there for a straight, if you look at one of my responses above you'll see why I thought that. But if someone raised me in there unless they have a set themselves they won't beat me. Agree?

[snowbank]

Absolutely agree. If turn bet was anywhere over 100 I was folding.

[snowbank]

I would call an all-in raise. Reason being there is very little chance I am beat. 4 should not still be in anyone's hand. I gave my thoughts on this in above responses. Check them out, and let me know if you change your mind? Either way, let me know what you think.

[snowbank]

So you try and steal the pot on the flop every time in a situation like this?

[snowbank]

There is a lot to think about here. Read all of the posts and it will give you an idea of how many players think about decisions and all that go into them. You said I had a 4% chance? I don't know what you mean there? As far as getting lucky, you can consider that "lucky". However, when I get pocket Aces I feel lucky. It's all about how you play a hand, not what it is. Minimizing your losses and maximizing your wins. Pot odds is a huge factor in a hand like this. That, and everything else in these responses all has to be taken into account.

[snowbank]

I do not post hands looking for praise. You said, "I notice new posters tend to post hands where they hit their draws." I did not post this hand to say, "look at me, I hit my draw." This hand contained a lot of different decisions in it that many hands do not contain. It could have been played a million different ways, and each way could be considered a decent way of playing it.

I have posted another hand for review, and just for you I titled it as uninteresting, so that you would not get your hopes up again.

Out of curiosity, would you please post what you consider an interesting hand.

Thanks.

[bonanz]

[ QUOTE ]
I have posted another hand for review, and just for you I titled it as uninteresting, so that you would not get your hopes up again.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL
Thanks for thinking of me and the fact I'm easily excited /images/graemlins/wink.gif
I really didn't mean to dump on your post. Any hand can be interesting if analyzed thoroughly. you mentioned something about switching up your play to avoid abc type of play, but for the most part that abc type of play will get you where you need to go in these low buy in sng's, especially against that 9's guy. Now mixing it up to try new plays is one thing, but to "keep em guessing" probably has less value than one would think in most sng's.

I play almost exclusively live so its difficult to post a hand as a don't have a hand history I can run through and pick one out. But if I come across something decent I'll make a post titled something like 'HOLY SH!T SNOWBANK CHECK THIS ONE OUT!!' hehe

I'm gonna check out your other hand now...I'm sure it will be interesting...sorry I was a d*ck, my apologies.

Cheers,
bonanz

[Jman28]

Thank you.

I was talking about the river. I should've been more clear as both the flop and the river could've been raised.

I agree that you would not be beaten here, except for by a set, if you were up against a solid player. The problem with this is, as you know, this isn't always the case. I would call the raise too, but I would not be happy about it.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
If I check/fold on flop, that's basic ABC poker. Nothing wrong with that at all! I like to try to stay unreadable, mix up my play. I can check fold all day long, but sooner or later I'm going to have to make some plays. Now, I didn't think I would win the pot there with the 60 bet. I thought someone might have a flush draw or pair of 10's. I thought I would have 1 caller on the flop. That dodn't quite work out, but I like to try and switch up my play from ABC. You agree at all or no? Interested in your thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like switching up play from ABC, just not on that hand. I prefer to do so when i'm up against one player, or can tell fairly clearly where i am. The way you played it, you're likely to get a caller, build a pot, have a decent hand where you don't know where you stand. You're making your decisions difficult.

I want to get tricky on a 3-flush board, or Kxx rainbow, or 883 board. My o's are more likely to fold without a hand, or more likely to playback with a hand. Easier to see whats up, easier to steal, easier to fold.

--Greg

[Dylan Wade]

I think your choice of action on the flop is the worst of your options. I will probably check/fold here. With better position I'd make a pot size bet. The half pot size bet is a really great way to bleed more chips in a 4-handed situation where there's a reasonable chance you do not have the best hand. The reason I'm check/folding is because the blinds are still pretty small, we've checked preflop, and this hand, on the flop, is simply not strong enough to commit many chips. A pot sized bet might be in action, but what happens when you're called? I'm much more afraid of being called than re-raised. A large re-raise is pretty easy to deal with, a call will be difficult to react to on the later streets out of position. Betting directly into four players on this flop makes a call likely, and I really don't want that to happen. The half-pot sized bet makes a call even more likely, and you're really stuck on the turn. I think you'll lose more on the later streets half-betting here than if you simply made a real bet on the flop. I never ever ever want to be 'called' out of position without a strong hand in a tournament situation. I think you have an easy escape on the flop-- this is not a good spot. Too early to mess around....We could have certainly raised pre-flop, but once we check the blind , I'm looking for a more solid hand in bad position.

[La Brujita]

I haven't read any of the other responses but this is how I play it.

On the flop I think leading out is a pretty good play, I would bet 90-100 rather than half the pot here to get some drawing hands out.

Turn I have mixed feelings. I think you played it fine but perhaps you should have fired the second barrel here. I rarely bluff into four way pots but your flop bet was somewhere between a semibluff and a value bet. I think the call is fine but you just lost initiative for the hand. The reason I don't like it is your hand is very unlikely to improve so if I thought it was good I would bet and if I didn't I would likely fold. It is different heads up when you are bluff catching but four handed not sure.

I check raise the river but I bet more than 250 here.

Edit to say I looked at it realy quickly and missed the gutshot. My bad. You played the turn really well. I still would have checkraised a bit more on the river.

[Pitcher]

Hi Snowman,

My only problem is the small flop bet. And yes, I would try to buy this most of the time. If re-raised, I would go away most of the time (this is all read dependent)

Pitcher

[snowbank]

HAHA. I will keep my eyes open for that post.

Don't worry about your rough responses. You have knowledge about the game, and the more knowledgable players giving unique insights on hands the better I think. Thanks for the good feedback on the hand.