I actually bet the river. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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cold_cash

06-30-2004, 06:47 PM

Understanding when to bet when all the cards are out is probably the most concept in poker for me. I've played a lot, and read a lot, and I still struggle with it.

Anyway, in an effort to improve my game in that area, (especially after one of the hands I posted earlier today), I decided I'm going to nut up and bet some rivers.

(Now, knowing my luck, everyone's going to read this and tell me I should have checked.) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB
Main Pot: 15 BB, between MP3, Hero and BB. > Pot won by Hero (15 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 5h Ks (one pair, kings).
MP3 shows Kd 6s (one pair, kings).
Hero shows Qs Kh (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 15 BB. 

Does anyone (everyone) bet this flop with overs and a gutshot, even against 5 people? Normally with a few less opponents it seems like a no-brainer, but how about with so many people in?

augie00

06-30-2004, 09:01 PM

The turn raise is fine, but 10 times out of 10 I would check it through on the river. I have to applaud your fearlessness though.

In a situation like this it's important to have a good read on your opponents. Many party clowns would straight up bet out this river if they hit a straight, forgetting that you raised on 4th street and missing the possibility to checkraise. If you've noticed your opponents betting out when their draws hit, go ahead and bet out, you probably won't get raised. If they seem to have enough sense to be able to tie their own shoes, you may as well check it through cause a checkraise is a very strong possibility.

RED_RAIN

07-01-2004, 12:03 AM

I would bet this flop with a gutshot nut straight draw and overs. I would check turn if I don't hit but I like to build my pot when I got good odds.

augie00 says a lot of people would check/raise the river here. I disagree. If I had a straight I'd bet out into someone who raised the turn in fear that they wouldn't bet the river as it is often very correct not to bet this river. But since no one did I would against 2 players often bet this river since IMO the correct play would be to bet the river with a straight. Cause if the raiser always had the straight, he will bet, if he doesn't he'll check, so if I'm sitting in front with a straight, I want to bet to make him call without a straight thus why I think your bet on the river is okay because of your position and number of opponents

ChuckNorris

07-01-2004, 12:57 AM

I don't know if I would bet the river, it certainly looks scary. However, I most definately would bet the flop. I think you have every reason to think that you're ahead of most of the players, and your bet may well drive out small/medium pairs that are ahead of you.

This is my first post to this board btw. I've been following the microlimits forum for a while and I like what I'm reading!

RED_RAIN

07-01-2004, 01:15 AM

River is value bet. Most of the time you will be ahead.

yzerman18

07-01-2004, 01:58 AM

I bet out the flop with your position, I consitantly do this when I'm the pre-folp raiser.

I've been debating just how good of a play this is at party's low limits.

Looking at your particular hand

If someone is holding a pat hand of Q-10, they are likely looking (at least I am, & not all 1-2 party players are tools) too build a huge pot and go for the check raise on the Turn. I bet the flop. This could potentially give you a free look at the turn & river to hit your gut shot or your over cards.

Since you didn't bet the flop, I like your turn raise, and your value bet on the river.

cold_cash

07-01-2004, 03:40 AM

With that flop though, it's not likely I've got the best hand, and there's no way everyone is folding.

I figured I could take a free card on the flop while it was available, instead of betting, being called, and maybe not having the chance to take one off on the turn.

Just my thinking.

sublime

07-01-2004, 12:18 PM

I figured I could take a free card on the flop while it was available, instead of betting, being called, and maybe not having the chance to take one off on the turn.

Your not including the possibilty that it comes back to you raised, and with a board like this there is a good possabilty of that.

Checking the flop thru here was a wise move, you had position and used it /images/graemlins/cool.gif

As for the river, most online players will just bet this card if they have a made straight, only problem is you dont know if you got some tight ass who is afraid to bet the river without the absolute nuts. I dont think betting and getting two callers will be -EV long term, but the problem may be the rare occurance when you get c/r and call.

B Dids

07-01-2004, 12:48 PM

I bet the flop. You might take it down there, you've got a gutshot + overcards. Plus, I take irrational glee in betting gutshot draws.

I your play from there, nice hand.

Tosh

07-01-2004, 01:05 PM

Easy river bet.

Rico Suave

07-01-2004, 01:17 PM

Hey Bdids:

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop. You might take it down there

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is next to no chance that hero takes the flop down with a bet here...5 opponents and a very coordinated board. I think Sublime pointed out that there is a good chance that it comes back to you raised, and that is not good here.

I am not saying that a flop bet is terrible. I am just saying that the number of opponents and the coordination of the board may push me into taking my free card now while I can.

-Rico

B Dids

07-01-2004, 02:44 PM

I think those same reasons make the flop bet easy.

3 options.

1-They've got the straight or a strong draw to it, and or part of the board that beats you.

2-They've got no piece of the flop and are scared of the straight.

3-They've got a lousy draw to the straight and/or part of the board that you beat.

To me, it's more often that they've got 2 or 3, and I want them to pay me off or run away scared than it is that they've got 1, and I'd rather not let them draw out for free.

ebranig

07-02-2004, 01:08 AM

Sklansky's Theory of Poker has an extensive section on playing when all the cards are out if i rememember correctly. Take a look at that.