Not Going With My Read

[sthief09]

3/6 live last night in Manhattan

I open-raise AQo. I get 2 loose-terrible cold-callers and the BB, a clueless player, calls.

Flop comes 866r.

BB bets, I raise, limpers fold, BB calls

Turn: 3 completing the rainbow.

BB bets, I call.

River: Q

BB bets... I pause for a second, turn to Johnny Boom Boom and sfer and say "people on Party Poker love to play trips this way" but I still raise. he calls and shows J6 and HHIG.


I really feel liek when people play the hand like this, they ahve trips almost all the time. has anyone else noticed this?

[lunchmeat]

If he knew you'd keep pushing a good starting-hand, he might not be as clueless as you thought.

From the way the hand was played, I think you have to put him on either an 8 or a 6. So best case scenario you only have 6 outs and are likely drawing dead.

[chesspain]

I like how your opponent played his hand.

[sthief09]

how could you possibly say that?

[arkady]

This guy seems to be super straight forward, ABC type post flop. Did he pull stop and goes often? I think he is trying to tell you very politely that he has 6. To answer your question I have seen this kind of behavior with trips, but only from the most poor and passive of players.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
This guy seems to be super straight forward, ABC type post flop. Did he pull stop and goes often? I think he is trying to tell you very politely that he has 6. To answer your question I have seen this kind of behavior with trips, but only from the most poor and passive of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm suprised by a few of these comments.

You and another posted expressed suprise at how the fellow with trips bet. Why? Are all players with trips supposed to check-raise and slow play?

I fast play big hands alot these days, since the seem to get called or raised 'til the river anyway.

Maybe I'm just the poor player you describe...

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
I like how your opponent played his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[Muckahaihan]

Why call the turn?

[Muckahaihan]

I agree with you for what it's worth. The fancy play isn't always the best one.

[arkady]

He played it poorly, because he failed to maximize his value given the aggression sthief was showing. I am by no means advocating a slow play here, but.

Instead of a stop and go, the check raise could work perfectly. He pulled the stop and go, thats fine - with no reraise on the turn he is probably not against an overpair, so the river 3 bet is a MUST.

But to answer your question, if you play fast, how can you support his play style? Playing fast would be 3 betting the flop and leading the turn, AT LEAST.

Either way, sthief's raise on the river was reckless, but overall he could have lost more.

[sthief09]

I won't lie. I paid close to no attention to how the rest of the table played unless I was in the hand. the 3/4 of us were generally talking about other hands during the ones we weren't involved in.

[Muckahaihan]

I agree that he didn't play the hand optimally, but I don't think he played it horribly either.

I would have called the flop and check-raised the turn. And bet the river.

[chesspain]

What's not to like?

He assumes that as a preflop raiser you likely have overcards or an overpair, so he knows that reraising the flop may cause you to bail quickly. On the turn, he may well believe that you will either take the free card if he goes for the checkraise, or that you might fold to his raise. Consequently, by betting he virtually guarentees to get at least one more BB out of you regardless of what you are holding. At the river, he's not going to go for the checkraise, since he believes that you will likely fold unimproved overcards or will fold to his checkraise regardless of what you are holding, and that you may decide to take the free showdown if you have an overpair. Hence, his bet on the river for the guarenteed call if you have an overpair or AQ/KQ.

About the only play with which I might disagree would be his lack of a river three-bet, but this reraise only makes sense if he thinks sthief would call without being able to beat at least trip sixes himself--and if he can (say with 88 or QQ), then he knows that sthief's going to cap it.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have called the flop and check-raised the turn. And bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you wouldn't have. You wouldn't get the chance to bet the river because there would be no river card. You would have made 2BB less if you chose the above line. Everyone and there grandma plays trips just like you describe. I think sthief can fold easily on the turn with the above action sequence.

[MarkD]

I agree. I like how the opponent played the hand. I have a feeling the opponent just blindly stumbled into the correct strategy without any forethought, but I still like the way it was played.

Sthief's river raise is way too much.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would have called the flop and check-raised the turn. And bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you wouldn't have. You wouldn't get the chance to bet the river because there would be no river card. You would have made 2BB less if you chose the above line. Everyone and there grandma plays trips just like you describe. I think sthief can fold easily on the turn with the above action sequence.

[/ QUOTE ]


and just to prove your point, I was planning on checking through on the turn. his best line of action would've been to keep raising the flop then bet the turn and river.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I like how the opponent played the hand. I have a feeling the opponent just blindly stumbled into the correct strategy without any forethought, but I still like the way it was played.

Sthief's river raise is way too much.

[/ QUOTE ]


I was mainly referring to the fact that he called a raise with J6o.

but he would've made more if the 3-bet the flop and led the turn. I wouldn't have put him on trips. unsophistocated players tend to slowplay, and he was unsophistocated.

I agree that the river raise was over the top. against others it might've made sense, since some probably noticed I liked to raise the flop and check the turn a lot. but with him, I should've realized he had trips.


but this is the crux of my post. he didn't put in enough raises for me to easily put him on a 6. however, I felt that he was capable of playing a 6 like this. so, on one hand, he really hasn't shown that much aggression, but on the other, his line resembled a line that many others take with trips.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
his best line of action would've been to keep raising the flop then bet the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It usually is in this scenario. I'm not a big fan of stop and go plays, but in this hand I don't think it was too bad.

[sthief09]

I was mainly referring to the J6o call. postflop he played it ok, but I play aggressively, and if he realized that he could've made more.

[Garbonzo]

Theres fast enough to win the race, and so FAST you go flying off the track on the corners....I don't raise the flop because I'm excited he already did it for me.

I lead the turn because he usually plays solid, and if his flop raise was bull dunky, perfectly possible, he is likely to check behind me....and I have read my Sklansky, so I know not to go for a check raise when I am not PRETTY DAMN SURE my opponent will bet....which I may not feel here.

Is it normal/ok to go for a check raise on the turn, yes, is it bad to bet out, I don't think so...not if you are afraid it will get checked through...which usually makes me feel like a pretty big dodo head...especially when they fold on the river...as he would have here had he not hit the queen.

Even so, if you are holding A-Q, and you get check raised on the turn, are you calling here? I'm not...hence the BB would have gotten 1 less Big Bet out of him here, no?

If I 3 - bet the flop, don't you think he is pretty likely to put me on the 6? A maniac makes that raise without it...and this player was describd as "clueless", which tends to lead to passivity when your hand misses, not over agression...unless he is practicing bluffing....or some such nonsense.

Just seems to me that J-6 played this hand ok, once he called that is...

I didn't think there was somthing super special about the play, I was just suprised by a couple of comments.

Someone please correct any erroneous logic on my part.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I was mainly referring to the fact that he called a raise with J6o.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course this is horrible, and I'm sure he simply stumbled into correct post-flop play here.

[ QUOTE ]
but this is the crux of my post. he didn't put in enough raises for me to easily put him on a 6. however, I felt that he was capable of playing a 6 like this. so, on one hand, he really hasn't shown that much aggression, but on the other, his line resembled a line that many others take with trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of that is true but I still don't see enough value in the river raise. It's clearly a call down spot in my mind.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I was mainly referring to the J6o call. postflop he played it ok, but I play aggressively, and if he realized that he could've made more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kind of forgot that he called a raise in the BB with J6...and they weren't even sooted. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Muckahaihan]

I'm not so sure. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

He seemed awfully committed to the hand.

[Yeknom58]

If you ask me more people will play an 8 like this rather than a 6. Usually you'll see a turn CR with a 6. The fact that you said the BB was totally clueless makes me want to just call the river bet as he might not be "tricky" enough to CR the turn with a 6.

I hope you were planning on checking the turn if he checked.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you were planning on checking the turn if he checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, getting a free card is the only reason I raised the flop. I knew he has something. I was just hoping it wasn't a 6.