2-4 hand

[Clarkmeister]

I thought this hand might be of interest to the forum. 2-4 online.

4 limpers to me in the SB with AsKs. I raise, BB folds and everyone else calls. 4.5BBs and 4 players.

Flop: Qs 5h 6h. I bet, EP calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO raises, I call, EP calls. 7.5BBs and 3 players.

Turn: 2c. I check, EP checks, CO bets, I raise, EP folds, CO calls.

River: 5d. I check, CO checks, MHIG.

[arkady]

Clark,

What was the thought process on the turn, how were you so sure that he was on a draw?

p.s. you play 2/4 online?

[Rico Suave]

Clarkmeister:

I have to admit, I would find it hard to play it this way with no reads. CO could easily be on a draw, but couldn't he play a Q this way? You have to fold if he bets this river, right?

--Rico

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. you play 2/4 online?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I was at a friends house trying to help him tinker with his game, and I played for a while while he watched to help us identify where he was playing differently and might be able to change some stuff.

[sfer]

Clark, do you call a river bet?

[AviD]

What did you have him on that raising the turn seemed like a good idea? Unless you were trying to push EP out, which I wouldn't be worried about...you aren't afraid of overs and raising gives him around 5:1 odds to draw to 4:1 flush. Why not keep him in?

I'd assume you were hoping EP and CO would fold to your turn CR there and take it down...although that is pretty unlikely in a 2/4 game. (at least for CO "who already has 1BB in" mentality)

River play, as I think about it seems good. He isn't going to call a river bet with a busted drawing hand but it may induce a bluff from a player knowing he can only win on the river if he bets it and you fold. Although most 2/4 players won't bet here without something, they aren't thinking about what you are thinking and will perceive your turn CR as a strong move with a big hand. Betting AK here seems futile as either you are way ahead with your overs to a busted draw that won't call or way behind to just about anything else that will call or raise the river bet.

The question is...would you call his river bet when checked to after he called your turn CR? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lunchmeat]

I don't understand the turn check/raise. Unless I know the CO will bet with anything in this spot and is aggressive enough to raise with a real hand on the flop, then I wouldn't make this play. Without that information, raising to knock out EP does not appear to be +EV.

Please explain your rationale for this move.

[arkady]

Ahh, thats what I figured. I also thought you got stressed out from your usual game and went down to 2/4 to blow off some steam...that at least explain the turn check raise. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

this reminds me of an AQo hadn that was posted today. I threw out the possibility of check-raising the turn with overcards after the guy to his right bet. if you get a chance, I'd really appreciate some insight into that. It was a post started by Saborion called AQo Standard? or soething like that.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh, thats what I figured. I also thought you got stressed out from your usual game and went down to 2/4 to blow off some steam...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, nice try though. I said I wanted to help my friend

[Michael Davis]

With this draw heavy board, Clarkmeister believes there is a reasonable chance the CO is drawing. He doesn't know this. The cutoff could have a real hand, too. But Clarkmeister is justifiably worried that EP has him beat.

If indeed CO is on a draw and Clarkmeister can push EP out of the pot, he has now turned ace high into the best hand in a reasonably large pot.

-Michael

[arkady]

that is very fortunate friend to be receiving such assistance.

[PokerNoob]

CO is the poster child for "take the free card when given, particularly by a preflop raiser". Well played Clark. This is why you are you and we is us.

[Clarkmeister]

"how were you so sure that he was on a draw?"

I wasn't *so* sure. I just thought that it was a reasonable possibility. I don't need to be anywhere near 100% sure to make this play.

[Clarkmeister]

I knew nothing about my opponent. I do know that most players, especially online, will raise that flop both with draws and with made hands. He could have had either one.

[arkady]

Gutsy against an unknown.

I suppose the idea being, that there is some chance that he is on a str8 or flush draw and might fold - giving you the incentive to do it.

I just find the move particularly daring, because you are out of position. What would you do if he bet the river?

[DMBFan23]

Clark,

the CR on the turn, was that to get out EP, or were you representing something to CO? do you fold to CO's three bet on the turn? (I would). do you call a river bet? (I would). <--- I hope I got at least one of those right

[BottlesOf]

Are you calling a river bet here?

[ElSapo]

Hey Clark... interesting hand, thanks for posting it. Not knowing anything about your opponenent, and given that most players would play a queen and a draw in much the same manner...

But would they? Unless it's for value, most players on a draw are checking behind on the turn here with two more opponents. I don't think I like the turn raise, as you're behind at least one opponent (I'm guessing). You have ace-high.

How certain do you need to be he's on a draw? Ok, you can't be certain, but what kind of probability do you need here? If I recall, pot was 7-8 BB when you popped the turn. I'd guess he'll be on a draw about 1-in-4 times? Maybe more, who knows, I'm throwing that out. What I mean is, was this just a "hey, let's raise it and see if it works" play, or is this a calculated move based on pot size v the probability he's drawing?

I don't see a queen folding here, not at Party 2/4, so you're gambling to eliminate the guy in the middle if he has less. And the raiser still has to miss his draw and not hit his cards for a pair (which could be 3 outs or 6, depending on his hand).

Sorry to ramble. I don't think I like the turn raise too much. Too many things have to happen for it to work out.

Also, unless I missed it, you've yet to answer the "call a river bet" question. Which, if he's the kind of opponent to bet his draw into two players, he might just bet the river unimproved. Though doing that when he just got checkraised is tough.

And then you have to call the river unimproved?

You've created a big pot in that spot against a guy who's showing a fair amount of strength. Looks to me like you managed to create a big pot with ace-high and now might just have to call. All based on the probability that he's on a draw, continued to bet his draw on the turn, and desperation-bet on the end.

I see the reasoning of cleaning up outs if perhaps you're in a reverse-domination situation with either guy, like they have AX, but still...

If it's good, I'd love some more explanation. Just trying to learn...

[AviD]

Nice post ElSapo...I share many of the same thoughts...still waiting on that river bet response.

[AceHigh]

I wouldn't bet the flop, I would check/raise.

[Michael Davis]

Quite often, Clark may have up to 6 outs even if it turns out he is beaten. An opponent would have to be borderline insane to threebet here with QJ.

-Michael

[Saborion]

That is true. But do they often fire again on the turn with a draw against 2 players, one of them being the PFR, when they have the option to go for a free card?

[Saborion]

Why did you bet the flop?
Against 4 opponents you're not likely to have the best hand anymore, are you? Granted, someone with a better hand might fold, but anyone with a Q won't, and there's a possible flush and straight draw out there.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
That is true. But do they often fire again on the turn with a draw against 2 players, one of them being the PFR, when they have the option to go for a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the internet? Of course they do. Heck, I had to beg people on this forum to check the turn with a draw in a thread the other day.

To address other questions, I definitely call the river. However, it's really not that important since all but the strongest players will be checking behind unless they have a monster, which they don't, or they'd have 3-bet the turn.

I want to address this thread more, because I really think checkraising the turn here is important, but frankly, I'm too tired to do it justice. Basically, you have a great shot of having the lead. You can't allow the 3rd player with either a weak made hand or 6 outs to call. Even if you are behind to a pair, you have 6 outs against the CO a huge % of the time.

The pot size dictates that you can't fold, so investing this incremental bet to maximize your chances of winning the pot is absolutely essential. You can fold a better hand if you are behind, you could easily have the best hand, but any non-dominated hand has at least 6 outs to beat you. The CO is more likely than not to be drawing. This is an easy investment of an incremental bet that simply must be made. Just calling here in an 8.5BB pot is terrible.

I hope to expound some more, but I wanted to get something out here for discussion because this is a critical type of play. There is discussion on this type of concept in TOP where you are less than 50% sure you have the best hand, but raising still becomes the correct play because of the chances to get it headsup and the size of the pot.

[Clarkmeister]

I bet the flop for a few reasons.

1. I won't be folding, even for 2 bets cold on this flop.

2. It is very disjointed and I have a high likelihood of getting many people to fold.

3. My opponents are more readable if I keep betting than if I overrepresent my hand be checking and raising.

Checking and folding is out of the question. Checking and calling definitely inferior to betting in this spot.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
1. I won't be folding, even for 2 bets cold on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
That might be 7.5 + 1 + 2 = 10.5 to you. You call getting 5:1 from the pot? Possible 6 outs + 1 for the backdoor flush + maybe something for a backdoor straight. Then add possible implied odds? What about reverse implied odds?

Maybe it doesn't matter since you most likely won't be faced with a raise and re-raise behind you if you bet out. Just curious about that statement since I'm a weak post.

[ QUOTE ]
3. My opponents are more readable if I keep betting than if I overrepresent my hand be checking and raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
That might be true. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If we're going to call, it's better to bet, I agree. I wouldn't be sure I wanted to call though, since
1: even if we hit an A or K, that might give someone two pair
2: if someone has a flush-draw, we
a) have less clean A and/or K outs
b) they'll hit their flush one time out of three
3: someone might have a straight draw (not too worried about that, but combined with the possible flush draw, it worries me a bit)
4: someone might have two pair or better, making us draw almost dead.

I thought we had to improve to win this pot, clearly I was wrong. I'm way too weak post it appears. Hopefully TTH will help me get a better idea of how good/bad shape a hand like As Ks is in a spot like that. It seems as though I'm way too worried about things when playing, and I strongly suspect overcoming that will have a great impact on my win rate.

[bisonbison]

Really interesting post. I do not yet have the wherewithall to make these plays on the turn.

[Saborion]

Well, if there's a reasonable chance that the turn bettor is on a draw, then check-raising is clearly better than simply calling. I didn't expect so many people to bet their draws when they can get a free card though. Learned something new today too, making it a good day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Saborion]

Routine play with AQo? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=791121&page=0&view=ex panded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=#791121)

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if there's a reasonable chance that the turn bettor is on a draw, then check-raising is clearly better than simply calling. I didn't expect so many people to bet their draws when they can get a free card though. Learned something new today too, making it a good day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If I posted it from the CO's perspective with a draw, I guarantee you people here would say "bet, SB might fold AK". In fact, it's so obvious that "hero" here might have AK that almost any player willing to raise the flop with a draw in last position is going to take another stab on the turn. I mean....cmon, I have logged many internet hours in the past, I read your guys' posts here, I watch others play on the internet all the time. All I know is that I don't see a whole lot of free cards being taken on the turn when a blank comes.

[Ed Miller]

Ahh, thats what I figured. I also thought you got stressed out from your usual game and went down to 2/4 to blow off some steam...that at least explain the turn check raise.

Guys, this is not a joke or "blowing off steam." This is a correct play that YOU GUYS SHOULD BE MAKING. If you think it's a "blowing off steam" play, then you should pay a LOT of attention to the thinking in this thread.

About a month ago, J. A. Sucker suggested that I include a hand example in the book that was VERY similar to this one (and included raising the turn with unimproved AK). I thought it was a great idea, but unfortunately the book was already too far along to add that much new content.

This thread really makes me wish that I had gotten it in there... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Ed Miller]

Clark, do you call a river bet?

You guys seem to think this is the interesting part of the hand. It's not! The interesting part is the play on the turn... which has ESSENTIALLY NOTHING to do with whether you would call a bet on the river.

Who cares if you call a bet on the river? First of all, very few people will actually BET this river. Second of all, it's a big pot and you have a bluff-catcher. Calling really can't be too big a mistake.

I think people on this forum suffer from what David called Tommy Angeloitis. Now I'm not sure the name is fair, but the problem is very real... you guys are hesitant to play marginal hands in spots that are profitable but uncomfortable. Yes, you aren't thrilled that you have unimproved ace-king in a big pot, but that's what you got, and you have to make the best play with it. It seems that some of you don't want to make the correct play because it MIGHT (note caps) leave you with a "tough" river decision.

Who cares! If the guy bets the river... congratulations to him. He might win an extra bet from you. Most players don't play well enough to bet there, and those that do... well, they play goot! But you can't be playing meekly with AK just because uncomfortable things might happen.

(Note that this post is now becoming more general in scope.)

I don't know how many of you read Rolf Slotboom's two part extravaganza on playing AK from the small blind, but he basically barfed Tommy Angeloitis all over the page. He wants to fold AK to a raise from the small blind because (a paraphrase of his article), "What if you miss? Won't that suck? You will have ace-high out of position."

Well yes, sometimes you miss and have ace-high out of position. That is often an unpleasant situation (when your opponent doesn't run in fear on the flop since you 3-bet him from the small blind with AK... which they do like at least a third of the time anyway). But just because something is DIFFICULT or UNCOMFORTABLE does not mean it is UNPROFITABLE. Furthermore, "making the hand easier to play," "finding out where you're at," and "avoiding a tough decision," are VERY RARELY VALID EXCUSES FOR MAKING ANY PLAY IN LIMIT HOLD 'EM. It's nonsense. Stop thinking like this, guys.

Don't miss river bets because, "What if this guy who has never bluff-raised anyone in his life decides to throw that all out the window and pull a world class play on me this hand?" Don't miss KEY turn check-raises because, "What if he bets the river?" Who !@#$ing cares.

That is all.

[Ulysses]

Don't miss KEY turn check-raises because, "What if he bets the river?" Who !@#$ing cares.

That is all.

Whoa. You're like some kinda tough bad-ass now. I didn't even include all the ALL CAPS stuff. Awesome. El Diablo is proud of young Ed.

[Ed Miller]

Whoa. You're like some kinda tough bad-ass now. I didn't even include all the ALL CAPS stuff. Awesome. El Diablo is proud of young Ed.

I RULE!

[Saborion]

I believe you. I didn't know this though.

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, it's so obvious that "hero" here might have AK that almost any player willing to raise the flop with a draw in last position is going to take another stab on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, shouldn't this be true for live games as well then?

[Clarkmeister]

of course. I just like to emphasize the online part since it seems over 90% of the posters here play the majority of their poker online.

[MarkD]

Against a lot of opponents that have this obvious AK taking another stab on the turn instead of the free card is often correct.

I'm guilty of not taking enough free cards, but I also think firing that second barrel is important at times.

[Clarkmeister]

"Against a lot of opponents that have this obvious AK taking another stab on the turn instead of the free card is often correct."

Especially against like half this forum. I promise that had I asked "raise,call or fold" on the turn for this that there would have been a long line in the "fold" camp. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MarkD]

Clark... I feel bad because I don't think I have this checkraise in me. It's days like this where I realize just how bad I am (relatively speaking) and it's a bit depressing.

I see the logic of it but I'm not sure I ever would have came up with it and that's slightly depressing.

[HajiShirazu]

Does CO really have a draw often enough to make this worthwhile?
And FWIW CO probably should bet the whole way if he has the draw since most players would fold their AK on the river to his bets. He can't assume that he's up against a mid-limit poker monster capable of taking him on with ace high in the 2/4 Party game.

[Saborion]

I'm right behind you!
I'm ok with it though, since I don't expect to be a good player overnight. I'm slow, I know. Luckily it appears as though I'm still able to make money at the 2/4 tables.

[sfer]

Sooo, yes?

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that Johnny Boom Boom watched me do the same thing with unimproved KQ from the BB a couple of weeks ago. I had no tough river decision though because it was a K. That's why I asked.

[Michael Davis]

I think this is a lot less common in live games, at least at lower limits. Lots more free cards are taken. Internet players are rabid animals.

-Michael

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Routine play with AQo? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=791121&page=0&view=ex panded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=#791121)

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, this is my post. clark, if you have any opinion on this, it would be much appreciated, as I only got one response so far (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=791957&page=0&view=ex panded&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[cnfuzzd]

Hum, i see the value in checkraising the turn, in fact, it looks like a moment of pure brilliance to this very mediocre player. However, once you have c/r the turn, and dont get the three bet, why wouldnt you bet the river. You know your opponent isnt terrible proud of their hand, and that they have conceeded you might have some strength. So you either value bet your hand, or make a bluff against an opponent who has virtually screamed "weak hand". Wouldn't this bluff work often enough to make it profitable? Plus, not showing down your AK would mean they would never find out what you c/r'ed them with.

peace

john nickle

[arkady]

Yikes, ouch Ed! I dont think anyone suggested that this is an incorrect play, my point was simply that it seemed overly aggressive against an unknown player out of position.

Seems like Clark just assumes that everyone on the internet is psychotic and seems to be answering with his own dose of aggression. Yet it was my understanding that the best antidote for such behavior is to do the opposite.

On an unrelated note, you should have put the example in the book - no doubt about that.

[cnfuzzd]

<<<Seems like Clark just assumes that everyone on the internet is psychotic and seems to be answering with his own dose of aggression. Yet it was my understanding that the best antidote for such behavior is to do the opposite>>>

Are you saying you aren't psychotic? WE WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS PUNY HUMAN!!!!!

peace

john nickle

[arkady]

First you threaten to eat my brains and then you say 'peace'. How exactly can you wish me peace? I am now scared and traumatized because of you.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like Clark just assumes that everyone on the internet is psychotic and seems to be answering with his own dose of aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this isn't some random escalation of hostilities.

Again:

1. It is clearly correct to call the turn in this 8.5BB pot.
2. Ultra conservatively I'd guess we have at LEAST a 20% chance of being in front of the CO.
3. We have a high chance of folding out the rest of the field since it is just a single opponent who has shown no strength at all.

These factors make throwing 2 bets into the pot instead of 1 the absolutely correct play. Frankly, I'd put our chances of being in front of the CO at over 40%.

If you really think that CO has a queen, set or two pair more than 4x as often as he has a draw then I don't care if you are playing internet or live, you are playing way too scared. I'm not assuming anyone is playin psychotic at all. I'm assuming that they are playing poker .

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like Clark just assumes that everyone on the internet is psychotic and seems to be answering with his own dose of aggression. Yet it was my understanding that the best antidote for such behavior is to do the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]


clark said that his opponent doesn't have to have a worse hand that often for the play to be right. it's not that he thinks his opponent is psychotic, it's that he could be betting a draw, and this improves his chances of winning.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't miss river bets because, "What if this guy who has never bluff-raised anyone in his life decides to throw that all out the window and pull a world class play on me this hand?" Don't miss KEY turn check-raises because, "What if he bets the river?" Who !@#$ing cares.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you need a little more passion there, Ed. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ElSapo]

Hey Clark... I got ten things stuck in my head last night and found myself still thinking about this hand at about 3:30 a.m. after my seventh beer. I gave up and decided to come back to the thread in the morning, hoping it would make more sense.

It makes a little more sense, but not a whole lot.

It just seems like the cold war all over again. Two bets go in on each street. Pre-flop you raise. Flop, he raise. Turn, you check-raise. Each raise makes it more and more imperative to win the pot, but each raise represents more and more strength.

I just feel like it's one of those hands where it's getting out of control, where you can't stop b/c of previous action, but you still don't have a whole lot.

Questions... What if your third-man doesn't fold? What if he calls the two bets cold? What happens if that first bet on the flop doesn't fold a couple of players?

What happens if you get a different river? as it went, that river was pretty innocuous, but what if it made a flush possible?

I don't mean to get hung up on calling the river as Ed has railed against. Apparently it's automatic. Having decided that the raiser is somewhat likely to be on a draw (let's comprimise and call it 30% of the time), and with 8 BB in the pot...

Like a lot of posters, I'm having a lot of trouble with this hand. And while I can now understand why the % of times the CO is drawing is pretty large versus the pot size, and how that makes eliminating the third man essential...

Ah. It just stinks of cold war escalation. Or playground antics where no one wants to back down.

I'm past the point of thinking the CR is wrong - when you and Ed come out saying the checkraise is definitely the right play, I suck it up and try and understand why. I guess I've built my game around looking for bigger edges instead of pressing the potential smaller ones.

This hand has had my head spinning for two days.

ElSapo

[arkady]

Remember that thread Bottles started where we had a huge discussion of whether or not Bottles should check or bet the turn with his multiple draws after check raising the flop. I now realize that this is exactly the same situation, your opponent is now Bottles - but instead he bet instead of checking the turn and you punished him.

Heh, how things come together /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Haupt_234]

(Chance that LP better is drawing) + (Chance that players inbetween will fold a better hand) + (Chance of overcard outs hitting on the river) + (Small chance better will fold) > (Chance that underpair/unimproved AK will hold up without the checkraise)

This is the way I see it, if this type of "formula", which I say loosely, is understandable.

Haupt_234

[Saborion]

Well, pre-flop was an easy raise right? 2 bets.
Clark explained why he bet on this flop, it got raised, and Clark has to call now. 2 bets.
The turn didn't improve Clarks hand, but since there's still a chance he's ahead, and if not, must call due to the pot odds, it's pretty important that he raise the LP bettor to make the third player fold. The pot is big, and he need to protect his hand. A small additional bet is well worth it. This player might have a better hand than Clark, or might improve on the river.

You need me to shake you a bit ElSapo? /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sure, a two bets on each street, but it's almost natural. The hand just unfolded that way. Me thinks you're not clearly awake yet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
You need me to shake you a bit ElSapo?
Sure, a two bets on each street, but it's almost natural. The hand just unfolded that way. Me thinks you're not clearly awake yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm awake now but I still don't like it. Which doesn't mean it's wrong -- it means I have a lot to learn. This is the reason I read these forums. (that and my job is ass-boring).

[cnfuzzd]

Dude, i told you, im psychotic.

That traumatized feeling will go away as soon as I EAT YOUR BRAINS PUNY HUMAN.

peace

john nickle

[Saborion]

Yah, we all need to improve, except maybe El Diablo!

In this particular hand though, I didn't expect us to be have the best hand as often as Clark said we're likely to. And I didn't think those with flush draws would opt not to take the free card. Not only because the PFR might only have AK, but because there's a third player in there.

[rloftin]

I understand the check rase to knock out the third player. And when the first raser just calles, you have to think that you have the best hand. So why not bet the river? Are you tring to induce a bluff and would you check rase if he bet into you? THX: R Loftin

[zamora]

i am bumping this one.

what a great post.
i've played so many hands, read so many books.
but once in a while someone posts something like this and suddenly you realize that you just have learned something new, some of the concepts that you have been struggeling with get explained in five ultra short paragraphs.

thank you meister Clark

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

So the CO's lesson here is when you raise the flop for a free card and they give it to you on the turn, take it. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

went down to 2/4 to blow off some steam...that at least explain the turn check raise.

No, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but this looks like a more punishing defense against a semi-bluff than just reraising the flop.

[1800GAMBLER]

You are my god.