how conservative in early PS SnG rounds?

[dfscott]

I'm relatively new to SnGs, and I've been playing PS 5+0.50s. I used to follow AleoMagus' PP SnG guide religiously, but often found myself short stacked going into the later rounds. I've adjusted my early play to be a bit more loose, since everyone's play seems to be more limit than NL style due to the comparatively low blinds at PS. This has helped me build my stack early at a fairly moderate risk. I still try not to chase anything without proper odds, and generally try to avoid any big confrontations.

So when this came up at level two, I was at a loss at how to respond...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t920)
UTG+1 (t1565)
Hero (t1805)
MP2 (t1195)
CO (t1780)
Button (t1430)
SB (t1945)
BB (t2860)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t300</font>, Hero ???

If it was anyone but the big stack, I'd probably push without thinking but considering how early it was, folding seemed like the safe plan. I don't think calling is a good option, since unless a K or A falls on the flop, you still don't know where you are.

Thoughts?

[Yeti]

I'm another one who despises these tiny raises by opponents. Obviously you suspect aces, but the truth is a lot of these reraises are done with much lesser hands.

In my opinion theres no way you can fold here, you'd simply be playing too tight.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion theres no way you can fold here, you'd simply be playing too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you re-raise, push or call?

[holeplug]

I'd push every time here. Theres only 1 hand your a dog too and if he has AA then tip your hat and move on to the next one.

[Zelcious]

KK then ?

[BigJohn043]

To me this is an auto push. Just because he reraised doesn't mean he has AA. He could be doing the same thing with a whole range of hands: AKs, QQ, AQs, JJ or AQ even. My guess is that when you push he lays down 9/10 and even when he doesn't he has a QQ or AK as often as AA.

[stupidsucker]

I have to agree with the push here, you cant fold, and you cant call risking an ace flop. There is no shame in losing to AA with KK all in preflop. I feel its a risk you have to take at this point.

[SDA004]

Wow I really can't believe that anyone would fold K's in that situation. He'd think he has the best hand with Q's, AK, J's, maybe even AQ suited. Hell its a 5 SNG at stars he probably would think he has the best hand with AT. I guess if you want to play it "conservatively" you could ahve just called and if an A appeared on the board you could fold, but to me, this is an automatic re-raise. Maybe not necessarily all-in, you may be able to minimum re raise and induce him to go all in, but I'd probably re raise all in about 70 per cent of the time, min-raise about 20 per cent and just call the rest of the times. Never ever ever would I fold K's pre flop on stars to any raise no matter who the player is. YOu just cant have that kind of read on a player in a 5 dollar SNG. I cant imagine someone at the final table of the world series laying down K's to a re raise.

[holeplug]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was anyone but the big stack, I'd probably push without thinking but considering how early it was, folding seemed like the safe plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really understand your thinking here. Stack sizes shoulder have a huge factor here since your hand is so strong and you should push here most of the time. But why would you be scared of the big stack here? I would actually want the big stack to reraise here because he will probably call your push more times than any of the other stacks will and you will double up. If he shows AA so be it but like other posters have said he probably has something like AK, AQ etc.

[slogger]

I'd take the middle road here. I agree calling is bad because you don't have a plan for a rag flop. What you need to remember, though, is that big stack could easily be over-aggressive here, and even if he's not, he could be holding AKs, QQ, JJ, the case Kings or maybe even a lower pair.

The point is that your hand is too good not to commit more chips in order to find out. I reraise to 750 or 800 here, and fold to an all-in unless I think he's a maniac.

I don't think he can push after being reraised without AA, and if he can, then you can play on with 1,000 in chips from this early stage. Make it clear to this guy that 1,800 chips are at risk here and if he's OK with that, then (and only then) consider backing down.

[skierdude1000]

Nothing to think about here, that's an easy push all-in

[dfscott]

Thanks all for your responses -- here's how this went.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG (t920)
UTG+1 (t1565)
<font color="C00000">Hero (t1805)</font>
MP2 (t1195)
CO (t1780)
Button (t1430)
SB (t1945)
<font color="C00000">BB (t2860)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t300</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t1805</font>, BB calls t1505.

Flop: (t3625) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t3625) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: (t3625) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t3625
<font color="green">Main Pot: t3625 (t3625), between Hero and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by BB (t3625).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
Hero shows Kc Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: BB wins t3625. </font>

I didn't hesitate very long on this and didn't feel bad about it at the time (I gave him a "n1" and started a new tourney), but then I started stewing about it and decided to post -- I now feel like I did the right thing.

[slogger]

Seems to be consensus that you just had to push, but I'd like to hear criticisms of my approach (reraise to about 800). I think you have enough chips that you can make this play (a significant-sized reraise) without pot-committing yourself.

It's not that I immediately put the reraiser on AA. It's just that I believe I have enough chips to practically force him to tell me whether he's got it or not, and even if he has the balls (or enough dead brain cells) to push with AK or JJ or worse, I'm willing to play on with 1,000 chips because I believe I will still be in perfectly comfortable position at this stage of the tourney. I know AA vs/ KK rarely happens, but to me this appears to be a classic example of one of the few times you can get away from the hand (Hero has fairly large stack, villain is chip leader, but would have to risk 60% of his stack to represent AA, blinds low enough that a reraise leaves enough chips left over to consider folding to an all-in).

FWIW, I think if Hero had 400-500 fewer chips going into the hand, then he has to push.

Criticims of my uber-tight theory?

[dfscott]

I like your theory, because I was fishing around for something like that at the time. This might be another one of those times that the "&gt;35% then push" theory might not apply.

This also brings up another topic that I find interesting. TPFAP talks about chips being worth more the fewer you have. I also think that they are worth more the later you have them. Doubling up or even tripling up early, while nice, doesn't really help you as much as doing it on either right before, on, or after the bubble. In fact, I'd rather be the big stack on the bubble than be a huge stack in the first 2 rounds.

I'm new to this, so I might be wrong here (or this may be obvious to the old hands) -- in any case, I'd love to hear comments.

[dfscott]

Last night I was reading TPFAP and in the hand quizzes I saw a very similiar situation to this (pg 166 for those of you who have it). To be fair, he was talking about calling a push instead of pushing yourself, so the Gap Concept definitely comes into play here. However, in his explanation about why calling the push is bad, Sklansky goes on to say that no one w/o Aces would be pushing in this spot anyway, so you can't call with Kings. We're talking about pushing with Kings, and it sounds like Sklansky is saying that is a bad risk early in a tournament. Maybe it's different in a single-table SnG as opposed to a giant multi-table tournament (he was talking about the WSOP in his example)?

It's too bad we don't have DS on this thread to clarify for us /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night I was reading TPFAP and in the hand quizzes I saw a very similiar situation to this (pg 166 for those of you who have it). To be fair, he was talking about calling a push instead of pushing yourself, so the Gap Concept definitely comes into play here. However, in his explanation about why calling the push is bad, Sklansky goes on to say that no one w/o Aces would be pushing in this spot anyway, so you can't call with Kings. We're talking about pushing with Kings, and it sounds like Sklansky is saying that is a bad risk early in a tournament. Maybe it's different in a single-table SnG as opposed to a giant multi-table tournament (he was talking about the WSOP in his example)?

It's too bad we don't have DS on this thread to clarify for us .

[/ QUOTE ]

TPFAP is a great book, with some very basic and important ideas about tournement poker. However, you should be very careful when applying some of Sklansky's points to on-line tournaments, and certainly to low buy-in SNGs.

This might sound harsh to you, but as I see it, NO WAY I fold KK PF in a low-buy in SNG. I will very rarely fold it in higher buy-ins and ONLY if I have a very very strong read and in very very rare and specific situations.

Playing SNG means you have a short period of play time, and relatively short stacks, if not very short stacks, most of the time. You are giving your opponent WAY too much respect if you're folding KK in such situations, and by that you are making siginificant -EV moves.

Yes, once in a while you'll bump into AA. Nothing you can do about it. Stacks are too short and the read is almost always insufficient in order to lay down kings.

My opinion of course.

[PrayingMantis]

Your approach is completely understandable, however, after playing enough of these games, on any buy-on, you'll see people putting you all-in in similar situations with SUCH a variey of hands, that laying KK PF would be a very big mistake.

You just cannot be afraid of AA in SNGs. Stacks are way too short for such a consideration, and the blinds go up way too fast. That's my opinion.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, once in a while you'll bump into AA. Nothing you can do about it. Stacks are too short and the read is almost always insufficient in order to lay down kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point about the difference in SnGs and tournaments -- I posted something similar on another thread and got a similar response.

I haven't been playing SnGs (or NL, for that matter) for very long, so while I felt it was the right play, I wanted to make sure.

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

But a very well respected opinion. Thanks for taking the time to respond.