Party 15/30: AA questionable on every street

[steveyz]

Just sat down, no reads

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Party Poker 15/30 (10 handed)
Hero has Ah, Ac and is MP2

EP1 raises, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop(11 SB): Jc, Ks, 4s

SB checks, BB bets, EP1 could, EP1 Disconnect, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB Disconnect, BB calls, Hero calls

Turn(10 BB): 8d

BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls

River(13 BB): 4d

BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB calls, Hero calls

[Bad Beat Coming]

If you had 3bet the flop, ask whether the button still calls with his KJo or pocket 4s....

So the button 3bets the flop, and bets the turn. Id be check calling the river (though I confess that I might have bet out on the turn).

[Barry]

Ugh...

That was awful. Why in the world would you not 3-bet preflop in a Party 15/30 game? Get the money in the pot!

Having cold called PF, I'd cap the flop and bet out the turn, and slow down to a turn raise.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh...

That was awful. Why in the world would you not 3-bet preflop in a Party 15/30 game? Get the money in the pot!


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed wholeheartedly.

[astroglide]

That was awful. Why in the world would you not 3-bet preflop in a Party 15/30 game? Get the money in the pot!

uh, he did get the money in the pot. 3 people called after him. i doubt 2 of them would have if it were 3 bets.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
That was awful. Why in the world would you not 3-bet preflop in a Party 15/30 game? Get the money in the pot!

uh, he did get the money in the pot. 3 people called after him. i doubt 2 of them would have if it were 3 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that clear cut.

1) how do you know two people would fold for three bets out of the three that called 2 cold?

2) Would you rather play 5 people for 2 bets with AA, or 2-4 for 3-4 bets? Well, I'd certainly rather player 3 people for 3 bets than 5 people for two bets, plus the blinds now have a tougher decision and you either make them call with worse odds or donate dead money to the pot.

Please convince me otherwise, But I think a cold-call after a raise with AA is a deviation from optimal play.

[astroglide]

how do you know two people would fold for three bets out of the three that called 2 cold?

that is a remarkably dumb question. it is obvious that more people will fold when it's threebet than they would when it is only raised. people will defend their blinds liberally when it's only raised, usually moreso if there are other callers.

Would you rather play 5 people for 2 bets with AA, or 2-4 for 3-4 bets?

if i'm guaranteed to get 5 people in preflop, i would prefer that over a very good chance to only get 2.

[steveyz]

Button showed KJo, BB had KT, and MHWG.

I almost always 3-bet this pre-flop, but I've been trying to vary my play a bit lately towards plays that might be slightly higher EV, but also higher variance. I'm no longer in the bankroll building stage so I figure I can afford a few more swings.

Anyone think I should cap the flop and lead the turn? Or maybe just call and lead the turn? In retrospect, had I bet the turn, button would have raised, I would have called. And in that situation does anyone check-raise the river? Button's play was smelling like KJo all the way and when I called the river raise, I expect my hand to be good most of the time, but wussed out on a 3-bet. Anyone advocate a 3-bet?

I did what I was trying to do with the pf cold calling (deception), but I didn't really take full advantage of it. Perhaps it's because I have limited experience making these kinds of plays.

[steveyz]

If you are the type that must see the showdown with AA every time no matter what the board or the action, it's probably better to have as few opponents as possible. However, if you play well post-flop, I think it's more profitable in the long run to have 5 opponents in for 2 bets than 2-3 opponents in for 3-4 bets, especially when your hand is well concealed.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
that is a remarkably dumb question. it is obvious that more people will fold when it's threebet than they would when it is only raised. people will defend their blinds liberally when it's only raised, usually moreso if there are other callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have substance to add to most every thread, however you tend to be a bit abrasive about it. I guess I can live with that.

more people fold to three bets than to two bets. no sh!t. BUT. this is your original statement:

[ QUOTE ]
uh, he did get the money in the pot. 3 people called after him. i doubt 2 of them would have if it were 3 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

here you are actually quantifying the percentage of people who will fold. that's the point I took issue with.

It seems to me that you would like to get the most bets in the pot *per person*, rather than the most bets possible. The question is what exactly is the trade-off involved?

would you rather play AA

1) against 9 guys for 1 bet each
2) against 4 guys for 2 bets each
3) against 2 guys for 3-4 bets each.

I've always felt I'd prefer 3 given the three choices. #2 your implied odds are larger though for sure, but definitely higher variance and harder to play post-flop. for a good player, maybe choice #2 is highest +EV, I'm trying to understand the dynamics and don't appreciate the condescending attitude. not that I expect you to change.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm no longer in the bankroll building stage so I figure I can afford a few more swings.


[/ QUOTE ]

no one can and should want to "afford a few more swings". that being said, i did also try out some variation plays like what you did. and i found out that it is bad to cold-call a EP raise with AA in MP or later position. it is best to just 3 bet and hope everyone to call or fold so you play headsup against an EP raiser.

but anyhow, i must confest, that i do still cold-call with AA in some situation somtimes though rarely, 'cause i am tricksy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
would you rather play AA

1) against 9 guys for 1 bet each
2) against 4 guys for 2 bets each
3) against 2 guys for 3-4 bets each.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stoxtrader,

I also agree with you that #3 is more desired than #1 and #2. in an extremely aggressive game, chosing #2 sometimes to disguise your hand might have some benefit. but in general, with similar amount of bets in btf, i'd prefer a shorter field than a larger field too.

Kenny

[Barry]

Part of my point is in that game you do get folks to call 3 with a lot of hands. Heck lots of folks will 3 bet with any pair. Heck last night I had AA and the BB capped it with J7s.

So besides limiting your competion, I'd always want to get more $ in the pot PF in that game.

[1800GAMBLER]

So do you call preflop?

[Senor Choppy]

Preflop call is fine. AA improves with multiway action, and the only reason I tend not to like this play in 15/30 is because, practically speaking, there are two big blinds that you might allow to see a flop cheaply. Regardless, getting KJ to cold call 2 instead of mucking preflop is HUGE. If the flop had been KT4 instead, you would've made at least 7 small bets from the guy that you wouldn't have otherwise.

I probably would've waited until the turn to raise here, but a flop raise is ok. With your line you give all the 4-outers correct odds on the flop and turn, but probably get the 5-outers (jacks) to fold. I think I prefer letting them both call 1 on the flop and then forcing them to fold on the next street.

I hate the turn check.

On the river, I think it's ok.

[skp]

It seems to me that you have a clear 3 bet on the river. About the only hand you lose to is 44. The button's most likely hand (by far) is KJ.

I also think that you could have 3 bet preflop (obviously), 3 bet the flop, or checkraised the turn. Don't forget that by playing deceptively preflop, you hid the strength of your hand. This therefore means that the button's flop 3 bet may easily have been made with a hand worse than AA.

BTW, I can never understand the need to misrepresent the strength of your hand by not 3 betting AA preflop when given the chance. The thinking is that "I don't want to give my hand away". Firstly, you will often be three betting without a pocket pair let alone AA. Secondly, when you go nuts on the flop or turn, you may in fact be telling others that you have a hand better than AA i.e. when you go nuts, they often put you on a set or top two or a straight or whatever the particular board offers as possibilities. That may be a good thing in some multiway pots but the point is that in general, trying to disguise the preflop strength of your hand by not 3 betting often has the exact opposite result postflop.

[BarronVangorToth]

Three ... five ... FIFTY ... bet this pre-flop.

Get the money in there AND eliminate marginal holdings.

It's hard to know what would've happened from there -- but I'd wager some people wouldn't call pre-flop, which means a different outcome is possible...

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)
"Repeat after me: AA Pre-flop = Raise"

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
About the only hand you lose to is 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of a lot of other hands that beat AA here, and 44 isn't at the top of the list.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I can never understand the need to misrepresent the strength of your hand by not 3 betting AA preflop when given the chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main reason for calling here isn't to misrepresent anything, it's to invite other callers with horribly dominated hands.

[skp]

I don't know...what hands beat AA? JJ and KK would have 3 bet preflop. 88 would not have gone nuts on the flop. J4 and K4 would not have called preflop. That leaves 44.

As for not raising or 3 betting with AA, all I am saying is that 99% of guys who do it, do it to try and not give away the fact that they have AA. Their smoothcall has nothing to do with letting "horribly dominated hands" come in.

(BTW, I am not saying that it can never be correct to smoothcall with AA preflop).

[Senor Choppy]

I wouldn't be worried about hands that are ahead of AA here, I was just pointing out that it has more to be concerned with than 44 specifically.

I will just call raises with AA if the right situation presents itself, and it has everything to do with added callers and little in the way of disguising my hand.

[astroglide]

every time i cold call in the open field with aces i'm doing it to invite other callers. even if the cutoff openraises, i'm doing it to get the blinds to call. if i go for a limp-reraise and it gets heads up i may just call for deception, or just call a blind stealer heads up.

also, there are two fours out there. ANY four beats him.