$109 SNG - should I lay this down?

[obex]

$109 SNG (Party). Early round, no reads.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+2 (t1015)
<font color="C00000">MP1 (t1000)</font>
MP2 (t1000)
<font color="C00000">Hero (t985)</font>
CO (t1030)
Button (t975)
SB (t955)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1040)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t50</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t35, MP1 calls t35.

Flop: (t175) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t175</font>, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t350</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero...

At a cheaper game this is an automatic push for me. But what about daytime game at this level where the average quality of opponents is higher?

[La Brujita]

Just out of curiosity why did you only raise it up to 50 after two limpers?

I am not letting go of my kings here, I am pushing, since there are many possible draws people could be playing and you have the backdoor second nutflush draw. If someone has a set of nines so be it.

[EverettKings]

Are you really going to give him credit for a set simply because you were raised? There are so many hands, made and drawing, that could be playing back at you here (a flush draw with overcards, A9 or 88 who puts YOU on overcards, etc) that you CAN'T let this go. In addition, you can't call either. He's going to keep betting at you, so you need to shove it in here when you're most certain that you're ahead.

That said, you could make this easier on yourself by raising more preflop (I would say to t80 or t100). That will be sure to knock out any loose players with 44 or 55 looking for a cheap shot at breaking someone.

JM2C

[Chief911]

I'd raise more preflop....

And after he reraises you: AUTOPUSH /ON

Nick

[stripsqueez]

the post makes it seem like your begging me to say fold but i'm pushing too

i dont have a pre-flop issue - i think you are a clear favourite to be in front - perhaps you let a pair of 10's in cheap

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Cptkernow]

I raise alot more preflop.

The fact that you have raised over x3BB dosnt mean anything to the majority of the other players who just see a raise of 50 chips.

I learnt this the hard way when I raised 50 from the cutt off with AA and got called by 46o.

Flop came 357 rainbow. The sickener is that the SB had QQ.
If I had come in with a bigger raise the BB would have folded and I would have taken the QQ guys chips.

Now I never raise less than 100 on levels 1&amp;2 with high pockets.
If you have a strong hand might as well get some equity into the pot. I find that even during the daytime at the 100s I normaly get callers with lesser holdings.

[PrayingMantis]

Well, I think I raise a bit more PF, like others have said, but this is not the issue here.

I disagree with some of the replies here: I don't think he's miniraising you with the flush-draw. I don't see this move very often. There is a chance for smaller over-pair, or TP like A9. I must say that for me there's quite a chance hit a set, with this pattern, at this level of buy-in (I think M.B.E wrote here once that according to his observations, a min-raise on the flop is 75% a set, or something similar /images/graemlins/grin.gif). You got checked-mini-raise, which is even worse than a simple mini-raise.

Still, in order to fold, I need to be sure it's more than, say ~30% (?) he has a set (since when he has a set, I will lose all my stack most of the time, and when he doesn't, he'll fold many times to a push, so I need this safety margin).

Anyway, I push, but I don't enjoy it... As a matter of fact, I would rather call a reraise all-in, than push against this mini-raise... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[skierdude1000]

If you lay down each time someone bets, you shouldn't be playing those stakes. Your best move is to reraise allin at that point

[Jason Strasser]

I think there is nothing wrong with the PF raise. I prefer 60-65, but if people are complaining about the PF raise they are wrong. Those of you that make it 125 to go in this spot are ones who:

1) Get too attached to certain hands
2) Pot commit themselves far too often early in a tournament (you'd probably make it 125 with AK too)
3) Are playing scared
4) Are giving away the strength of your hand

I agree with PM, this spot stinks. I end up pushing, because I don't trust anyone enough. I think a set will often check raise all-in, but I really don't ever check mini-raise so I can't tell you what the opponent is thinking.

Im assuming you pushed and lost, well have the comfort that we all would've done the same.

[Cptkernow]

Who said anything about 125.

I make it 100, and comit non of the sins you mention.
Have you got data to back up those assertions.

I find that in the games i play (100s) there are plenty of people willing to call that with wank such as KQs or smaller pockets.

In fact I double up frequantly in the first few rounds by raising 100 with AA/KK/QQ get called by lower pockets, flop comes in low with no overcards on the other players PP they push I call I win.

Whilst it is good to avoid risks early on, I find that bad players make their bad plays early.

You have to be prepared to capatalize on that so when you get down to last 5 who are often OK to strong you are well positioned.

[Jason Strasser]

I really think that a raise to 100 is fine too, I just feel like you are giving away too much of your hand. I'm a standard raise person, and early in the tourny I really don't raise very many hands. Not too many 100s players will cold call a raise of 100 with KQs, at least that's what I've found.

[Jason Strasser]

I really think that a raise to 100 is fine too, I just feel like you are giving away too much of your hand. I'm a standard raise person, and early in the tourny I really don't raise very many hands. Not too many 100s players will cold call a raise of 100 with KQs, at least that's what I've found.

[La Brujita]

FWIW a pot sized raise is to 85 so I don't think a raise to 100 is giving away that much.

Regards

[Cptkernow]

Once the levels get past 2, yea standard raises apply.

The QK thing is debatable but I will say the calling with low to mid pockets is prety common.

Other (weak)players dont analyise bets they just see them in terms of big/small.

Why I dont like going in too small is because if you start small with AA/KK etc you are very likey to go big after the flop.

This means that you are giving massive implied odds to anyone who decides to call your 45 bet preflop.

[Jason Strasser]

I hear what you are saying. But you kindof argue against yourself. You say that if you bet small, people will call and have good implied odds. Yet if you bet big, people will still call you with small pocket pairs (with the same implied odds).

This really wasn't meant to be a big thing. I think that 100 is fine, I was just trying to make a minor point about raising too much with AA or KK preflop in relation to the BB in the early rounds of a sng.

Fair points you made to justify a raise to 100.

[Cptkernow]

The raise to 100 will weed out some callers, a raise of just 45 makes a call with suited connectors justifiable etc etc.

And the implied odds after a call of 100 are much less than after a call of 45.

I want calls from players who can hit the flop and still be behind my AA or KK. They will then give you action.

Smaller pockets fit this critera as if there are 1 or no overcards on the flop they will often totaly over commit.

Suited or connected hands that limped in cheaply might hit the flop and then proceed to realy hurt you. If they miss they fold and you are 45 chips better off woo hoo.

Some might say that you want as many in as possible with AA or KK but if the come in for 45 and they call and miss, youve won 45 chips whoo hoo whilst in effect putting your whole stack at risk.

[Tosh]

Too many posts are concentrating on the preflop raise too much. I'd make it about 75 but I don't see much wrong with 50 either.

I think I would also push it all in on the flop because I cannot see folding this without a read being correct.

[SDA004]

There's a lot of talk about this pre flop raise made here, and to me his pre flop raise did exactly what he wanted it to do, but now he's scared about it. Obviously pre flop you have to mix up your play, you cant bet X every time. This time he decided to splay his K's soft to induce some action. Now on the flop he bets it. If its me and I'm in this pot, I see his small bet pre flop, and then see him raise after the flop. I'm thinking that this raise post flop is just mandatory a la Doyle Brunson's Power Poker. So if i'm sittin on 4 to the flush I'm gonna re raise him and semi bluff at the pot. I think the only play back at this kind of raise is an all-in. I tend to think that if someone had pocket pairs they were willing to play, they would have come back at him pre flop over the top. To me we're looking at A Q-9 suited. And you're still ahead in the hand, the only problem is you're too timid to capatilize on your play preflop.

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously pre flop you have to mix up your play, you cant bet X every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obvious to whom? I DO bet X every time (relative to the blinds) and mix up my play by changing the hands I bet with, not the amount of my bet.

[TheGrifter]

A set is more likely to put in a decent raise to make draws pay, especially since several very big draws are possible holdings. Two pair is impossible. I think he's raising a draw here, a set is possible but less likely.

Go all in unless you know something about this opponent that would change your mind.

[SDA004]

so every time you raise with a hand you always raise, lets say, 3x the big blind. Or you have a set raising pattern with every hand. For instance, K's are always a 5xBB raise. I think either is a real bad way to play, the second being the worst of the two seeing as though it wont take someone long to have a read on you.

I mean sometimes you get K's and you limp, sometimes you min raise, sometimes you put it all in there.

To me the key to poker is changing gears, and not only tightening and loosening your starting requirements, but changing your betting patterns as well.

[TheDrone]

Yes, changing gears is important when the situation changes (shortstacked, shorthanded, on bubble, etc.). However, I find the game conditions to be fairly static in the early levels, level 1 being the exception. This is a good time to employ a standard preflop raise because it disguises marginal hands when I choose to open with them. This works for me because I project a tight image.

On a side note - randomly limping with KK makes for a quick trip to the rail. I've seen it many times. Too many marginal hands will come along and collectively have a good chance to outflop you. At least make hands like A5 and 89 pay to see the flop.

If you meant that you will limp with KK under very specific game conditions, then I have no problem with your post. But IMO it's unwise (read: less profitable) to just randomly limp KK.

[TheGrifter]

Every time I raise, I raise the same amount. This is true for any "raising hand". Of course, in some situations any two is a raising hand and in other situations you couldn't pay me to raise.

Actually you gain in deception by using a standard raise for a wide variety of hands. Sometimes the easiest play is the best one.

[SDA004]

is this pre flop??? or all parts??

I mean this seems like with some hands your giving people cheap looks at flops.

[TheGrifter]

Preflop.

Nope, no cheap looks, I don't raise less than 3xBB, ever.

[300CE24]

With all respect, my suggestion for playing this hand is:

My basic philosophy is: If ane Ace doesn't hit the flop, then THIS POT IS MINE.

I would play like this to make that happen:

PreFlop:
Raise T100. This early even in a $100 SnG, people might call the T50 raise with typical drawing hands like 67s and so on. I don't want these people to come along. The T100 raise will keep people with Ax and smaller PP in. If everyone folds then ok, no smaller PP or Ax was out there. Fine with me. If someone have AA then fine to, I'm out and I don't mind.

Postflop:
I Auto push. If someone hit their set then I'm out and I don't mind. Two pair I see as higly unlikely with that flop. The problem with the T175 bet is that a flush draw and/or open ended will likely stay in. They might even try a semi bluff raise thinking that you have AK/AQ or such, didn't hit the flop and try to protect your PF raise with a bluff. If you then push they might feel pot comitted and call. If you auto push then flush/straight draws may still call, but at least you have the additional chance that they fold.

BRGDS

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I think either is a real bad way to play, the second being the worst of the two seeing as though it wont take someone long to have a read on you.


[/ QUOTE ]

He just means he always raises the same amount, whats wrong with that? If he has KK he raises the same as if he has KQ/XX or whatever, how is that easy to read?

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
I Auto push. If someone hit their set then I'm out and I don't mind. Two pair I see as higly unlikely with that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop cam down QJx, or JTx, would you suspect two pair then? Could you lay that down?

[300CE24]

still AP

[Tosh]

AP ?

[300CE24]

sorry it was meant as an answer to Hood (last posting). I mean Autopush here btw.

[mackthefork]

I would probably push here too, but there is a massive chance he has a set in my opinion.

Regards ML

[soxfan70]

I agree that the quality of players on-line during the day is vastly different than those in the evening hours. What I don't agree with is that you vary your play depending on the cost of the entry fee for the tourney. If you would push in a $10 tourney, push in a $100 tourney. Just my opinion.
Also, haven't read the results yet, but what could this raiser have? 6/7? In which case your ahead, so push. Maybe by the check raise, he floped a set, but are you gonna fold Kings? I say push regardless of level.

[obex]

Interesting replies. As far as the preflop raise - it is lower than normal for me, I like to raise a little less to encourage people to play against me when I have KK or AA at this level (1). I'm not happy just stealing blinds with a premium hand here.
But I don't think the preflop raise would have changed anything here. The point about the $100 level is not that I'm "afraid" to play, but I certainly respect a raise more at this level than in the $10 games. Especially during the day. My take here was that I was behind once I was raised on the flop but I still couldn't let it go. I pushed, he called with 99 and the turn and river didn't help me. 10th place. Afterwards I questioned why I pushed because I felt fairly certain that I was behind at the time, and if I was certain, why COULDN'T I let it go? So I was curious if the stronger players here are capable of letting it go in this scenario. I think this was a case where if you respect your opponent, you should fold, not because you're "afraid" or "weak" but because you're most likely behind and folding is the smart play. But it very easy to get caught up in the machismo of no limit...