bike 12-24?changes in LA structures?

i was reading that there's now a 12-24 game being spread at the bike with a $5 1/2 hour drop and no jackpot. was wondering if anyone here has played it yet and wanted to comment on it..


im getting a little freaked by all the changes taking place with the implementation of player fed jackpots. i dont want to pay a $1 out of every pot i take down for some lame bad beat jackpot. that's why i dont tip: every $1 counts to me. i can see that this harms the loose players more, but im still not thrilled. and now hustler is adding a small blind to their 9-18 game. that's an extra $3 ill be folding away an awful lot.


can anyone comment on the bike 9-18 as well. does it have two blinds or one? i heard they got rid of button drops there and they take the $5 (!) out of the big blind.

I haven't played at the bike in a while, but last time I was there (6 weeks ago), they only had 1 big blind. Although the rake will effect profit margins, I'm not convinced that a SB will...yeah, you'll be folding it, but its that much more you'll be winning.


I too read on this forum about the 12-24, though I haven't gone and checked it out...I probly will this week, though.


And like you, I am NOT happy about the change at commerce (extra $1 per pot for a 'jackpot')...I'm playing at Hawaiian Gardens more and more, and don't regret it at all.


Worm

could you tell me about the games HG spreads and the rakes?

You wrote: "i was reading that there's now a 12-24 game being spread at the bike with a $5 1/2 hour drop and no jackpot. was wondering if anyone here has played it yet and wanted to comment on it.."


I played it on Saturday (BTW, it was full when I played and when I left) and believe it could be a very good game for the players and the Bike. I’ve also seen it go a couple other days while I played the 6/12 kill Omaha game. On Saturday it was played with $3 chips and a time charge of $5 per half hour, which is the best deal in town near that limit (although the Bike also has a lower time charge than most in the 20/40 as well).


They might be thinking of adding a $1 jackpot drop to the 12/24. This could be a mistake since these games can get tight and many of the players it is likely to attract tend to be “collection and drop conscious”. The ones I personally know (many play the 10/20 at Hollywood Park) don’t mind keeping the game going through a tight spell or when short-handed, as long as that extra $1 is not taken. Many who play that limit are also aware that a six-handed game is about half as likely to hit a jackpot as a nine handed game. Yet because the game is in the elevated section and has plenty of elbowroom, nice decor, free food, and lots of chips in the pot, it should attract a fair share of loose players too. Note that if someone wants to play for a jackpot, they can always play the 9/18 game, which is close in limit, uses the same chips, and almost always going at the Bike.


"im getting a little freaked by all the changes taking place with the implementation of player fed jackpots. i dont want to pay a $1 out of every pot i take down for some lame bad beat jackpot."


I don’t particularly like it either, especially short-handed, but I believe it does attract the loose players and helps business in general at limits below 9/18.


"but im still not thrilled. and now hustler is adding a small blind to their 9-18 game. that's an extra $3 ill be folding away an awful lot."


I have mixed feelings about the single blind. I’m tighter than the average player (as most are who do well in mid to lower limits, and in theory should like one blind. However, I also believe that the small blind is where most players make the biggest mistakes relative to the way I play the same position!.


"can anyone comment on the bike 9-18 as well. does it have two blinds or one?"


The Bike uses one blind in the 9/18 and 6/12. The Commerce has two blinds. Hawaiian Gardens has one blind but still takes a dead drop (as of yesterday).


"i heard they got rid of button drops there and they take the $5 (!) out of the big blind."


Both the Bike and the Commerce added a $1 jackpot drop, which is now live at both clubs. They take the collection and jackpot drop from the pot; unfortunately, the law apparently requires that it always be taken (there is an exception, but the procedures haven’t really settled down enough for me to comment on). I do believe this is a big improvement over the dead drop taken from the button.


Regards,


Rick

Commerce 9-18 is undergoing changes, as Rick said. On Jan. 1st, they switched to pulling $5 out of the pot, per hand UNLESS everybody folded to the big blind. In this case, the small blind would be dropped ($2 rake, $1 jackpot).


Then, on Jan 4th or 5th, they switched again, when all fold to the BB. Now, they drop $4 and $1 jackpot, meaning the SB loses the entire SB (no more chopping), and the BB loses $2 (unless there are fewer than 7 players dealt in, in which case they drop ($3 and $1) or ($2 and $1). This all means that the BB now loses $2 (or $1 if shorthanded), and the floorman writes out a coupon for the money lost (i.e. the BB doesn't end up losing anything). I know all of the floormen, and I've asked many, and I haven't gotten a real answer as to why they give you this ticket worth $2 (redeemable at the cashier cage) instead of just keeping it on the table (i.e. not dropping the additional $2). "something legal" was one response. "they want to know how often all fold to the BB" was another (and the coupons would give the answer). Beats me, but it slows down the game. I'd love to hear the real answer.


At Hawaiian Gardens: 15-30 is $6/half hour. I don't know about bigger limits.


they have an 8-16, which I've heard isn't that great of a game, but I've never sat in it personally. I do know that the 6-12 is an EXCELLENT game. Earlier today I was playing in it for a couple of hours. They just introduced a small blind in that game. The drop is taken out of the BB and is $4 per hand (ouch), with no additional jackpot money taken out (but apparently they are thinking about reinstituting that). Since teh 6-12 has two blinds, I'm assuming that the 8-16 does as well.


I hope this helps. Rick, thanks for the Bike's 12-24 info.


Worm

GummyWorm,


We had a link to the new law (allowing the pot to be raked) on the "Other Topics" forum (or it may have been the “General Theory” Forum) about six weeks ago and an ensuing thread. The law was confusing but it appeared that there could not be a qualifier or a graduated drop as there is in most of the rest of the poker world. The thread was also linked to on RGP and discussed there and visa versa (i.e., I linked from RGP to 2+2).


I believe that most executives/owners in the California/Los Angeles card club industry would like to get some sort of reasonable drop system, but dealing with the legal hurdles is a real problem. The clubs realize they don't make any money when a game breaks during a tight spell because the law doesn't allow them to give the players a slide on a rake. And they realize they would get more games, faster games, and fewer problems with a **fair drop, which in the end would make them more money.


This doesn’t mean we will ever have rakes as cheap as Las Vegas. The Los Angeles clubs have to pay more in taxes, the overhead is higher, and poker is a primary activity (in Las Vegas, marginally useful/profitable casino space can be devoted to poker).


I didn’t witness the bizarre coupon activity at the Commerce as I was playing 9/18 Omaha and the game was OK so there were no chops. Maybe they are trying to drown the local sheriff (the one who used to enforce the dreaded dead drop) in paper to get him to loosen up.


Regards,


Rick


** Steve Badger has written (unfortunately he has had his posts removed from the archives so I have to summarize the essence of his argument) that the dead button drop is more “fair” at low limits since all pay equally. I think being fair is secondary. A drop from the pot is better for the players who are “collection conscious” since at low to lower middle limits they tend to be tighter and don’t win their “fair share” (i.e., in a good loose full table you or I will never average winning 1/9th of the pots). Yet most of the loose players who actually benefit from the dead drop prefer the drop from the pot since they don’t pay during their dry spells and they aren’t exactly worrying about the fact that win more then their share of the pots yet usually lose the most money. Note that this applies to games in the 3/6 to 20/40 limits. At higher limits the best players might win more then their fair share of pots with aggressive advanced play and intimidation.


I agree with Badger (and Kenneth Ng, who made a case for continuing time collections at the higher limits) that dropping from the post tends to tighten up the game over time. But in Los Angeles the games will still be lose enough to beat, the action players will hardly notice they are losing more (since their results are dominated by variance), and new players will be attracted to the clubs. Let’s hope the clubs can arrange for some kind of qualifier though.

"the law apparently requires that it always be taken"


The law states that fees cannot be calculated as a percentage of wagers or money won. Since cardrooms that "rake" the pot in installments have generally based the fees on a percentage of wagers, many LA cardroom management types have concluded that the law requires that the full fee always be collected. However, the law does not state that the collection for all rounds of a poker hand must be a fixed amount or collected at a single point in time.


I've been trying to persuade the management of the Normandie Casino to take hold'em collections based on a fee-per-betting round model (collecting only when there is action in the round) and it appears I have more or less succeeded. The new collection procedure is planned to commence later today (along with progressive jackpots). I believe this will make Normandie's low-limit collection structure the most favorable in Los Angeles for players.


-Mike

" The new collection procedure is planned to commence later today (along with progressive jackpots). I believe this will make Normandie's low-limit collection structure the most favorable in Los Angeles for players."


could you specify for us what the rake structure will be for something like 6-12 there then? and is there any lower mid limit games (something between 6-12 and 15-30) there and how does the rake work on a game like that?


thanks for the info!

Well, I for one hate the new collections, as they take too much time for each hand and cut the hands dealt/hr. I am a regular in the 9-18 at Hustler and was there this weekend, but left to play 15-30 at Commerce due to the new collection( although Hustler's 15-30 and above games have great time collection, you can sit in a game for close to an hour and only pay $3). Like most mid-high limit players, I care not for the jackpot(although I won one this past year), and hate the new drop systems, although I do like Commerce's system of taking the $1 for the jackpot out of the pot rather than on the button, as Hustler does. Tight players should usually prefer a raked structure to a turn-based structure. Plus, social players and tourists usually like chopping, so this may not be the best solution. So what clubs are now including the jackpot rake system and which are still on the button-drop system? Thanks.

DeezNutz,


Which collection? Each club has a different flavor and within the clubs things haven't settled down yet since changes have started at the beginning of the year.


Regarding wasting time, at the Commerce (in 9/18 holdem and below) they deal the first two cards, the players bet before the flop, then the dealer stops everything to take the collection and the separate jackpot drop. Since they have to make change, it takes about four seconds to do this on average. Then the dealer puts out the flop and the second round of betting commences.


They could easily perform the same job after the flop while the players are betting. This is the way its done in at least one other club.


I figure this costs about 4 seconds per hand X 32 hands per hour = 128 seconds. The other method would probably delay the game no more than a second, if that. That is about a hand per hour right there.


Regards,


Rick

The Normandie has done it: LA's first progressive collection structure. Their 3-6 and 4-8 games have a collection of $1.00 to $3.00 (depending on the number of betting rounds in which there is action), plus a $1.00 jackpot drop which is only taken when there is a flop. The maximum collection in their 6-12 and 8-16 games is $4.00. All their low limit games have a single big blind structure. If the new collection procedure causes a reduction in the level of action (due to the reduced pot odds caused by taking the collection from the pot), it may be necessary for them to go to two blinds; I have noticed no change in the level of action so far, however.


They have not been getting the 8-16 game, but hope and expect this will change shortly. To generate more interest in the game, they have just established a $10,000 seed for the 8-16 progressive jackpot. You might want to come by the Normandie on Friday evening to maximize your chance of finding an 8-16 game. Their 6-12 games are usually very good (i.e., loose and not particularly aggressive).


-Mike