semi bluff check raise

I've been trying to mix a few semi-bluff raises on the turn into my game. This has been a play that I've never been comfortable with, so I practically never do it. Whenever I do it, it never seems to work and I feel like a jackass. /images/wink.gif


Anyway, I know if I never do it, I'm costing myself $x/hr. (how much is x?) So, I made a resolution to do it this year. I'm going to try and get one in every session, assuming the opportunity comes up.


Last night was my first chance. 20-40 game at the Mirage. I'm 2 off the button, first in with pocket sixes, I raise. The cutoff, a player I don't know much about, but I think he's a fairly tight aggressive player makes it 3 bets. I put him on a bigger pair, or two big cards. Everyone else folds. I call.


Flop is 4-5-J rainbow. I check, he bets, and I call hopeing he has AK, AQ, KQ. Turn is 7, also making flush draw possible. I check with the intention of raising with my pair and open end straight. He bets, I raise, he calls. I now put him on a bigger pair or flush draw. (would it have been better to come out betting here?)


River is T, no flush. I bet (this was a mistake, not sure why I bet here, stupid play) and he calls. I show my sixes and he turns over QT offsuit??? I don't get his play, but he wins. Anyway, I end of feeling like a jackass again. /images/wink.gif


I think I played correct until the river, and I'm going to keep trying to make these kinds of plays. If anyone has any feedback on this play, please respond.

What is most important here, in my opinion, is that the semi-bluff check raise only works IF YOU ARE REPRESENTING SOMETHING. Your check-raise should say: I've got a flush, I've got a straight, I've got three of a kind (if the board shows J636, for example- your check-raise says: I've got the six). However, in the case you mention, your check-raise doesn't represent anything (your opponent is not going to give you credit for 86, since you raised preflop). That having said, you still made the right play IMO (the bettor might very well have had just two big cards and with the pot this big you don't mind him out). However, it is unlikely your check-raise will make a better hand fold and that is one of the conditions for the semi-bluff check-raise to be profitable. Just my thoughts,

Rolf.

Clearly your read of the player was quite off if he called the checkraise on the turn with Queen high, against this type of player the checkraise has little value because he clearly isn't folding a better hand.


Shawn

Unless you're playing against unusually good players, a semi-bluff check-raise is probably not going to work at 20-40 as often as you probably think. If you were to never use it at 20-40 and lower, I don't think you would give up anything. The reason is that very few players at these limits are going to make the "big laydown".


In any case, as Rolf pointed out, you need to be credibly representing something truly scary, and that's not the case here, since your opponent won't ever believe you have 86.


As for his play, the preflop raise could simply be a re-steal/isolation raise, especially if he's already seen you open-raise with marginal hands from this position. His bet on the flop means he was dealt two cards. His bet on the turn is just following up on his weak semibluff on the flop. He can call your check-raise because if he puts you on a small pair (as is now likely) he's got the pot odds to draw to a bigger pair. I'm not saying he played the hand correctly, but this is how you often see 20-40 players handle a situation like this.


TRLS

I agree that his check-raise probably won't make a better hand fold, but it should frequently make two overcards fold, and you do want the two overcards to fold. Plus, you should have ten outs in case you are beat.


Another interesting question is what to do on the river. If your opponent will call with many more hands than he will bet, and you will call him if he bets and you check, then it becomes correct to bet your pair of sixes as long as you can beat many os those additional hands. This might be the case here if your opponet will pay off with AK or AQ since those are two likely hands for him to three bet with. The problem, and this is what makes river play difficult in this spot, is would he also call the turn raise with these hands? Obviously the answer is yes given that he stayed to the end with QT, but that wasn't known until the hands were turned up.

"against this type of player the checkraise has little value because he clearly isn't folding a better hand."


You wrote the above...I'm sure you meant it (but I want to say it just to clarify for other readers) that a checkraise does have value, but a CHECKRAISE BLUFF really doesn't. You want to try the check-raise in this situation when you really do have a made hand, even if it is as little as QJ in this situation against this opponent...but you don't want to check-raise bluff him ever again.


I think.


Worm

The opponents call of the turn check-raise is horrible. He could be drawing dead how can he call to try to make a pair on the river on this type of board not even knowing if it will be good if he hits.

I agree with the others regarding the check-raise here, you cant have 86. But i dont understand why you weren't more agressive earlyer. I think thats the key to this hand.


You choose to raise with a marginal hand and, though reraised, you get a nice flop. You have to follow up. Its not very likely that flop hit him so only danger is a pair. He is agressive, his preflop reraise could mean anything, as an other one said, from isolation to overcards and big pair.


Now YOU have to represent a pair or maybe AJ. And still 66 might be good.


I would bet the flop or alternatively check-raise him (he have to bet). You have to find out where you are. The worst was to call. You take out all the air from your preflopraise by check-calling. Either fold or show strength.


Then follow up on the turn with a bet and you have him.


If your flopbet is raised you could try a reraise. (he was agressive - right) If he still shows agression, its time to think.


But.... I might be too agressive? Pls. comment.


I just cant see a J could hit him on this flop. So we are talking pairs.... I would like to know early and knock out overcards.

I'd noticed that he wasn't playing very many hands, so I gave him some respect. I was worried about AJ or a bigger pair, that's why I didn't get aggressive on the flop. In hindsight, I think you may be right, I should have bet or raised the flop and not been so passive. My plan was call down the river as long as an A or K didn't come. I'm not positive if this was a good way to play it, but that's what I was thinking.


I think I may have given off some kind of weakness tell that he noticed. That's the best explanation I have for his call of the check raise on the turn. I hadn't been steal raising much, so his 3 bet with QT was suprising. Maybe he just got bored and saw an opportunity. He didn't play many hands afterward either.

Totally agreed, but that doesn't tell the whole story.


Fact is, the check-raise bluff is wrong here. It's twice the risk for less than twice E/V (if that's the right way to put it). He should have just bet and given the guy a chance to fold, which I think he might actually be MORE inclined to do than many people think here.


Many players will simply "call and hope" when they get trapped. Those same players will pause a beat and fold if they are simply bet into.

Calling the check-raise is a poor play but it's not a "horrible" play. He's getting 8:1 pot odds and probably 9:1 implied odds. It's thin but not way off the mark. If he's got a read on DR that makes him think DR doesn't have much of a hand, then that actually makes the call correct.


In any case, the original point was that this is why semibluff check-raises on the turn in 20-40 are usually a waste of money: right or wrong, opponents at this level rarely fold here, often out of sheer irritation at getting check-raised, or because they figure they've already put in all this money, they might as well call one more bet.


TRLS

I like the play, and just consider this to be one of those unfortunate things.


I think other posters are discounting the scare value of the board. From that position the SBCR could easily hold JJ, 77, AJ suited ( suited to the 4-5)AQ, KQ suited (cutting off half of the Q10's outs) A10 suited (same thing).


I don't see how else to play it. The read is of a tight aggressive player. If you bet into an overpair on the turn, you should anticipate a raise and investing another $40 from behind to play your 4.5 to 1 shot on the river.


The fact is, unless the Q10 man is psychic or the best reader on the planet, he made a bad play and s***ted out.

Calling a raise with a 34-outer on the turn is never "horrible." HTH.